FireWire cable w/no power leg

daz_bike · « **Reply #20 on:** 28 May 2011, 07:51 am »

Yes there is a firewire cable made specifically for audio carrying data only. It is the Most Beautiful Sound Firewire 800 cable from Mach2music. I just received mine from Mach2 today (along with other goodies)

http://www.mach2music.com/accessories/accessories.html

Temple · « **Reply #21 on:** 28 May 2011, 08:40 am »

I am looking for something in the lower price range than that. I have been looking at the unibrain cables. Would be nice to find a decent cable that I would not have to use an adaptor. I just want to know the pin config I should be looking for going from the Mini to the Oyen. Thanks.

ted_b · « **Reply #22 on:** 28 May 2011, 02:31 pm »

Quote from: Temple on 28 May 2011, 08:40 am

I am looking for something in the lower price range than that. I have been looking at the unibrain cables. Would be nice to find a decent cable that I would not have to use an adaptor. I just want to know the pin config I should be looking for going from the Mini to the Oyen. Thanks.

This: http://www.granitedigital.com/firewire1394-b3ft4pinto9pinnoled.aspx
and then an adapter. The adapter is not an issue with going to hard drives; heck, when I had my fw DAC it was not an issue even in that signal path. I tried a lot of combos.

jrebman · « **Reply #23 on:** 28 May 2011, 05:01 pm »

Ted,

On the Oyen mini-pro800 drives, there is a smaller FW port too, so not sure if an adaptor is still needed or not. Problem is I don't know if the other FW port is 6 or 4 pin, or if a 4 pin will fit in a 6 pin socket. Do you know?

-- Jim

ted_b · « **Reply #24 on:** 28 May 2011, 06:17 pm »

From the pics of the 400/800 (I have only the 400/USB Oyen) it looks like one 6 pin and two 9 pins.

Temple · « **Reply #25 on:** 28 May 2011, 07:38 pm »

I have the one with the single 400 port and two smaller 800 ports. I would like to use the firewire 800 ports and the same at the Mac Mini end. Still unsure of what cable I need though...

Thanks guys.

Temple · « **Reply #26 on:** 29 May 2011, 01:29 am »

So the Mac Mini 2010 firewire side should be 9pin also correct? If so then I would need a 9pin to 9pin cable. Is there such a cable with the power leg lifted?

ted_b · « **Reply #27 on:** 29 May 2011, 01:41 am »

Temple,
Why are you not believing me?

One more time: Get a 9 pin (MAC Mini) to 4 pin (so it has no power) like the one I linked...then a 4 female to 6 male adapter, so you plug it (6 pin male end) into your Oyen HDD's 6 pin port. Voila!

jrebman · « **Reply #28 on:** 29 May 2011, 01:43 am »

You are correct about the 9-pin to 9-pin for goin between a current mac and a oyen drive, however, the only such caable with the power leg removed is the Most Beautiful Music, and you've already said you don't want to spend that kind of money (and I completely understand that). That said, I'm using a Unibrain fw 800 cable and like it well enough for now, and it is an improvement over the stock cable that comes wih the Oyen and OWC drives.

I'm slowly working on another potential option, but at thistime I have no idea whether it will pan out or not so I don't really want to say anymore right now.

HTH,

Jim

Temple · « **Reply #29 on:** 29 May 2011, 01:57 am »

Quote from: ted_b on 29 May 2011, 01:41 am

Temple,
Why are you not believing me? One more time: Get a 9 pin (MAC Mini) to 4 pin (so it has no power) like the one I linked...then a 4 female to 6 male adapter, so you plug it (6 pin male end) into your Oyen HDD's 6 pin port. Voila!

That would give me something other than firewire 800 speeds though correct? I will find a company that can build me a 800 to 800 cable and have the power leg lifted I guess.

Temple · « **Reply #30 on:** 29 May 2011, 02:05 am »

Sent you a PM Jim...

ted_b · « **Reply #31 on:** 29 May 2011, 03:09 am »

Firewire 800 speeds are irrelevant. I send the largest files possible (24 bit/384khz) and have no issues. But having someone build a 9-9 powerless cable is cool , too. Good luck.

jrebman · « **Reply #32 on:** 7 Jun 2011, 03:18 pm »

Folks,

I've been in contact with a manufacturer of high quality FW cables with regard to having a run of cables made with the power legs removed, and here are the two responses I got:

"Hi Jim,
Such cables are impossible to be made as they would violate the 1394b specification
and there are no devices (as far as I know) that would work with such cables.
Powerless cables existed only for 1394a standard but they connected into different
connectors (the Sony iLink 4 pin port).
For 1394b there is no such option. Why would you need a power-less cable?"

And after I explained what was going on and why, here is the second response:

"Hi Jim,
I spoke with our engineers about this and they told me that this noise issue cannot
be valid, unless you are using very low quality cables.
Our cables are insulated inside, each separate line is insulated and there are even
further insulation layers between each line.
What cables have you tested in general?"

And the last thing I did was tell him about the MBS and that indeed the issue is valid, but that I was also not going to try to convince him or his engineer that the effects are real, as I just don't have time for that and don't suspect that I'd ever get anywhere anyway.

So, there you have it. Unfortunately this has been the typical, if not the exact response I've been getting, so I'm done. Without having one of these folks here to listen in person, I can't hand them any engineering data that will convince them.

Maybe somebody else will have better luck finding some FW cable maker with a more open mind.

If we could find a professional recording studio that has tried powerless fw cables and is getting results that are better than with standard cables, then possibly one of these companies may listen.

Thanks,

Jim

ted_b · « **Reply #33 on:** 7 Jun 2011, 03:24 pm »

Flat-earthers I call them.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #34 on:** 8 Jun 2011, 04:57 pm »

Well,,,,,,,,,, I dunno.

As a refresher to this thread, I'm using a firewire 400 drive and I have discovered a noticeable improvement by switching to a GoldX firewire cable instead of the free firewire cable that came with the drive. I actually bought two GoldX firewire cables, one is the proper 6 pin to 6 pin cable and the other is a 6 to 4 pin cable with a 4 pin to 6 pin adapter. This configuration apparently removes the power leg.

I've switched back and fourth a couple of times between the powered and non-powered GoldX cables and I can't hear a meaningful difference between the two. (Actually I can't hear any difference at all.)

Maybe non-powered firewire is the best way to go, but in my humble computer audio set up I just don't hear a solid, musically compelling improvement using the non powered cable.

Just my two pennies for now. Maybe some day I'll have a really good sounding computer audio source.

ted_b · « **Reply #35 on:** 8 Jun 2011, 05:01 pm »

Quote from: Quiet Earth on 8 Jun 2011, 04:57 pm

Well,,,,,,,,,, I dunno.

As a refresher to this thread, I'm using a firewire 400 drive and I have discovered a noticeable improvement by switching to a GoldX firewire cable instead of the free firewire cable that came with the drive. I actually bought two GoldX firewire cables, one is the proper 6 pin to 6 pin cable and the other is a 6 to 4 pin cable with a 4 pin to 6 pin adapter. This configuration apparently removes the power leg.

I've switched back and fourth a couple of times between the powered and non-powered GoldX cables and I can't hear a meaningful difference between the two. (Actually I can't hear any difference at all.)

Maybe non-powered firewire is the best way to go, but in my humble computer audio set up I just don't hear a solid, musically compelling improvement using the non powered cable.

Just my two pennies for now. Maybe some day I'll have a really good sounding computer audio source.

When you switched back and forth I assume you added an ac adapter in one scenario (powerless) and none in the other. No sonic changes?

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #36 on:** 8 Jun 2011, 09:20 pm »

Two GoldX firewire cables. Both of them look to be identically constructed except :

One cable is a 6 pin to 6 pin, standard firewire 400 cable.

The other cable is 6 pin to 4 pin firewire cable, slightly thinner in diameter because it is missing the power legs (two wires, and two pins on one end). And, yes, I add a 4 pin to 6 pin adapter to this cable so I can plug it into my computer's 6 pin firewire port.

So, it is true that they are not exactly the same cables being compared because one of them has an adapter in the circuit.

The idea was to see if I could hear a difference at this basic level by eliminating the power leg. (That's how this thread got started

) I figured if I could hear something encouraging at this level of quality, then it might be worth looking into a more expensive "powerless" firewire cable. (Upgrade

) But I did not.

I'm not saying that there is no difference at all, or that a better quality cable is not worth trying. I'm just saying that I did not hear a clear, musically better presentation by removing the power leg of a reasonably priced firewire cable.

..... in my very basic computer playback set up. (Old Macbook Pro and running AIFF files with itunes.)

ted_b · « **Reply #37 on:** 8 Jun 2011, 09:31 pm »

QE,
My point was this: if you are removing the power from your firewire cable that attaches to your hard drive then where is the power (to power the drive) coming from? You are commenting as if the only thing you changed was cabling. And if that is true, then the hard drive ain't using the power in the firewire cable anyway...and that's why you detect no difference. So which is it? My point in this thread was that using a wallwart to power my Oyen (and maki9ng the fw cable powerless) was wayyyy better than using the power in the cable/MAC path.

In the case of fw cable to fw DAC, the same (powerless cable sounds better) is true, but that's not what you are comparing either.

Quiet Earth · « **Reply #38 on:** 8 Jun 2011, 11:00 pm »

Quote from: ted_b on 8 Jun 2011, 09:31 pm

if you are removing the power from your firewire cable that attaches to your hard drive then where is the power (to power the drive) coming from?

My external hard drive is powered by a SMPS. I was under the impression that this hard drive still has noisy power sent along with the data files, even though it does not get its power from the computer. I know that you can link more firewire drives/devices to my external hard drive, so I assumed that eliminating any of the noisy power created by the SMPS would be beneficial. Did I get that wrong?

Maybe there is no power generated on those pins from the self powered drive. Damn. Now I have get the voltmeter out and measure it.

Lets go back to the OP :

Quote from: Audioclyde on 21 Jan 2011, 03:11 pm

I'm looking to experiment with using a FireWire cable with no power leg to connect my Mac mini to my external HD (where music files reside).

My understanding of the original post was that by removing the power leg section from the data line section in the firewire cable, it would be beneficial in reducing noise if you run a self powered drive. I know that Wireworld separates the power lines from the data lines in their USB cables to reduce noise in the data lines, so I thought there might be some merit to this quest.

Now I'm all messed up . . . . .

Audioclyde · « **Reply #39 on:** 8 Jun 2011, 11:21 pm »

I started this mess

, and have been remiss in not giving an update. I finally bought the MBS FW cable, and using it and powering my Oyen HD with its wall wart (plugged into my Uber Buss) does make a definite improvement.

Whether it's worth the price of the MBS cable is up to everyone to decide for themselves--for me it was worth it!

Thanks all.

Randy