[wushuliu]

Thanks for the feedback.  Lots of good exchange. 

While I fully support the basic free market principals,  the prices for the upper high end gear still seem excessive to me.  I do not think the high end audio press are "doing their job" with this issue.  When's the last time a reviewer stated that a 15 K amp, while sounding wonderful, in NOT worth 15K, and the same level of perfromance can be had by (X) for X percentage less (how about never?).  So, while with most purchases, one can get some reasonable set of facts to research a potential purchase, a objective and balanced set of facts/opinions for high end audio is pretty much non existent. 

Without a method to get proper feedback on high end audio gear, the buyer is left to their own devices as to the "worth" of the potential purchase.

Well that goes for anything, be it audio or laundry detergent. If we want the audio press to be fair and balanced that means that they need to be able to operate with funding independent of any entity with a vested interest. With major magazines and publications collapsing or transitioning to on-line only presence, ad-based revenue is as important as it ever was. Audio being a niche magnifies that pressure many fold, so frankly I don't expect them to be fair and balanced. At best, you have to read between the lines. Independent reviewers for any field are becoming harder to find. I do find the Entry Level column that's new for Stereophile to be hilarious however. That's a perfect example of makign every effort to not rock the boat.

[Freo-1]

Believe it or not, it's been done before. I should know, because I've done it. Click on the link and then scroll down to the last section of the review.

http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/mcintosh-xls-320-and-xls-112-system-review.php


PS:  Damn, I can't believe I let that review see the light of day!  How embarrassing! I'm cool with synopsis, but holy crap, that is some wickedly bad writing composition!   

Good Stuff. 


Ok, so it's ALMOST never. 

[stereocilia]

It seems appropriate to talk about psychological anchors.  If I have in my head that the best amplifier costs X, then my assessment of whether or not amplifier Y is a good value will be anchored by X.  After all, X and Y have the same basic job.

So, it may be possible to raise the price of Y just because X exists, even not a single person buys X.  In other words, Y might seem like a terrible value on its own, but it feels like a great value compared to X.  So, we open our wallets when we otherwise would not.

By the way, I read about this phenomenon in Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely.

Have high-end sellers gone overboard with their anchors, so that now people are starting to disconnect the prices of X and Y from each other?  Do the anchors skew the prices too far away from the value they would otherwise have without them?  Good questions.

Edit:  I should add, maybe this is where the distinction between mid-fi and hi-fi really is.

[Freo-1]

It seems appropriate to talk about psychological anchors.  If I have in my head that the best amplifier costs X, then my assessment of whether or not amplifier Y is a good value will be anchored by X.  After all, X and Y have the same basic job.

So, it may be possible to raise the price of Y just because X exists, even not a single person buys X.  In other words, Y might seem like a terrible value on its own, but it feels like a great value compared to X.  So, we open our wallets when we otherwise would not.

By the way, I read about this phenomenon in Predictably Irrational by Dan Ariely.

Have high-end sellers gone overboard with their anchors, so that now people are starting to disconnect the prices of X and Y from each other?  Do the anchors skew the prices too far away from the value they would otherwise have without them?  Good questions.

Edit:  I should add, maybe this is where the distinction between mid-fi and hi-fi really is.

Interesting points being made.  I hope that price alone does not dictates what the High End is about.

I grew up with reviews from the likes of Audio:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_(magazine)

They used to perform reviews on gear with ACTUAL performance measurements, and would explain how things worked  (imagine that).  Speaker reviews would have performance and impedance curves, so one could get an idea of how to evaluate how components could fit together.  Precious little of that type of reviewing occurs today.   

 

[JLM]

If you look at cars, you could ask the same.

For instance, is a Rolls Royce priced too high?

Seems to me that it boils down to the following questions:

1. Is there "honest value" in the content (materials/labor/R&D) and service?

2. Does it fit into your budget?

3. Can you appreciate what makes it "high end"?

[werd]

I guess you have to ask what drives high end. If the cost of high end is a purely status driven then its a yes. We will never get around people wanting status symbols and willing to pay for it. If this is what drives up the price of high end then yes it is too high. Unfortunately what it  does is take the the price beyond the means of the regular hobbyist. Those being people who appreciate the brand on merit alone.

On the other hand i would not expect quality gear to be cheap either. All of us here know how much each piece of gear can affect a resolving, personal thought out system. You want that certain brand sound inserted in your pre amp section, well it might cost more than you want to pay. But if you it want it bad enough you will do it. This is where generic recievers and box store brands get left in the dust. They generally don't have that kind of hobby appeal. Those are your basement prices for sound and it goes up from there.

[davidrs]

Agree with a number of the comments in the thread.

To add to these comments and thoughts.

Though I personally wish 'high-end' audio was more affordable, I will be completely honest (and this applies to most, even though many will likely not admit to it): I would be moving up the ladder if I could afford to do so, as long as how I personally define value was met and achieved.

In any hobby or interest, there are those that will be the first to purchase, and I for one will not judge whatever their motivations for doing so are.

In many ways, these are the folks that allow manufacturers and inventors to push the innovation and performance that ultimately does get priced more reasonably for the broader market.

This pursuit of excellence, however one defines it (and yes we usually do not agree on the definition or definitions) is very much at the center of our human experience, and is a major characteristic/theme of modern human history.

Further, it allows those with slightly deeper pockets, to move into this gear at much more attractive price points, and usually very soon, once the very early adopters/buyers move on to something else.

The system isn't perfect by any means, but it does tend to work itself out.

- David.

[sts9fan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZxsOBUlPSI&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[revrob]

I'm always interested to hear that professional musicians, conductors etc. rarely have this level of "high end" playback equipment but tend to have more mainstream stuff. 

Agreed however those musician and recording engineers that I know will spend $10,000 for a guitar and $100,000 for a mixing board. The will spend untold thousands on monitors and other equipment.

People spend mostly what they can afford. My sister-in-law can't believe what I spend on equipment but they own a boat that cost $75K and cost them a $1,000 a weekend to use it for 3 or 4 months a year.


I have about $10K invested in used equipment and I play it everyday. Bottom line is that people invest in things that give them pleasure. We all do it in some area and to me that is OK.

Peace.

[Johnny2Bad]

The price is the price. Plain and simple.

This isn't my only hobby, and trust me when I say that, regardless of what the area of interest might be, and regardless of whether it's genuine, knowledgable users or complete fools who tend to gravitate to a given forum or website, an ever-replicating number of threads are generated that complain that "xxx is too expensive". The one constant amongst them is that the original poster wanted to buy the product, or, if you will, "lusted after it".

Checking out a product yesterday, I saw 10 replies to a reasonably competent review of a product from a manufacturer on a reasonably competent enthusiast website, where said product cost $50, confidently asserting that the product was "a ripoff" since a similar product was available for $20. None of the posters had any experience with either product, apparently.

The mere existence of a less expensive alternative, even though the two are not the same, seems to be enough to generate the comments.

I would be lying if I didn't find the whole thing somewhat tiring. No argument, regardless of merit, seems enough. So it just goes on. And on. And on. And when people tire of replying, just wait a while, and a new version rises Phoenix-like to take it's place.

We actually live in a world, most of us, where if you really want something, you can have it. Our parents or grandparents had to save to buy refrigerators. Does anyone even know what a layaway plan is today?

Having said that, we all have priorities. Usually it's a conflict with our real lives versus our lust that brings about the anxiety. The solution ... make it all cheaper and I could buy what I want. In any industry, there are even buyers who demand prices that bankrupt the producers; in their eyes it's the only price point they are satisfied with. Trouble is, taken to it's natural conclusion, that means the end of a viable economy.

But, and this is purely an observation, as soon as a group of products become less expensive, it's exposed to more consumers, and a new round of ever-less-spendthrift consumers begin the complaints yet again, the only difference is they have smaller wallets, or less ambitious goals.

Really, and I apologize to everyone, including the OP and everyone who has made thoughtful posts, because the discussion can have merit, the question is relevant, and it probably is worth proposing.

It's just that there is no answer that satisfies everyone, no argument is too well reasoned to defeat the almighty wallet and it's finite nature, and in the end, they all die off in the same way, with no solution found. Because there is none.

It is what it is. Everyone can have good sound today, if they want it. Perfection is a little more difficult to achieve, in fact nothing you can buy, as far as I can tell, offers it. So, all products are flawed in some way and buying the very best will not solve that, at any price. The used market is vibrant in this hobby. The choices of product, at every level of competence are, quite frankly, staggering in comparison to almost any era of the hobby. Even people who are in the industry and make good livings at it cannot buy some of the products available for sale.

That does not make those products overpriced, it makes them inaccessible. The two situations are not interchangeable, they are different.

Yet, there are always products that offer tremendous value, out of proportion to the existing competition, and the frugal are well advised to seek them out. In my experience, that is the best solution, and I recommend it to anyone who wants more; because that's the way to get "more".

A guy I used to know who did church installations and repaired Hammond B-3 organs used to have a saying. When asked by the pastor about some change that was perhaps somewhat impractical, he would reply "Sure we can do that. It will just take a little more time ... and a lot more money."

[Diamond Dog]

Well said and Amen.

D.

[Freo-1]

The price is the price. Plain and simple.

This isn't my only hobby, and trust me when I say that, regardless of what the area of interest might be, and regardless of whether it's genuine, knowledgable users or complete fools who tend to gravitate to a given forum or website, an ever-replicating number of threads are generated that complain that "xxx is too expensive". The one constant amongst them is that the original poster wanted to buy the product, or, if you will, "lusted after it".

Checking out a product yesterday, I saw 10 replies to a reasonably competent review of a product from a manufacturer on a reasonably competent enthusiast website, where said product cost $50, confidently asserting that the product was "a ripoff" since a similar product was available for $20. None of the posters had any experience with either product, apparently.

The mere existence of a less expensive alternative, even though the two are not the same, seems to be enough to generate the comments.

I would be lying if I didn't find the whole thing somewhat tiring. No argument, regardless of merit, seems enough. So it just goes on. And on. And on. And when people tire of replying, just wait a while, and a new version rises Phoenix-like to take it's place.

We actually live in a world, most of us, where if you really want something, you can have it. Our parents or grandparents had to save to buy refrigerators. Does anyone even know what a layaway plan is today?

Having said that, we all have priorities. Usually it's a conflict with our real lives versus our lust that brings about the anxiety. The solution ... make it all cheaper and I could buy what I want. In any industry, there are even buyers who demand prices that bankrupt the producers; in their eyes it's the only price point they are satisfied with. Trouble is, taken to it's natural conclusion, that means the end of a viable economy.

But, and this is purely an observation, as soon as a group of products become less expensive, it's exposed to more consumers, and a new round of ever-less-spendthrift consumers begin the complaints yet again, the only difference is they have smaller wallets, or less ambitious goals.

Really, and I apologize to everyone, including the OP and everyone who has made thoughtful posts, because the discussion can have merit, the question is relevant, and it probably is worth proposing.

It's just that there is no answer that satisfies everyone, no argument is too well reasoned to defeat the almighty wallet and it's finite nature, and in the end, they all die off in the same way, with no solution found. Because there is none.

It is what it is. Everyone can have good sound today, if they want it. Perfection is a little more difficult to achieve, in fact nothing you can buy, as far as I can tell, offers it. So, all products are flawed in some way and buying the very best will not solve that, at any price. The used market is vibrant in this hobby. The choices of product, at every level of competence are, quite frankly, staggering in comparison to almost any era of the hobby. Even people who are in the industry and make good livings at it cannot buy some of the products available for sale.

That does not make those products overpriced, it makes them inaccessible. The two situations are not interchangeable, they are different.

Yet, there are always products that offer tremendous value, out of proportion to the existing competition, and the frugal are well advised to seek them out. In my experience, that is the best solution, and I recommend it to anyone who wants more; because that's the way to get "more".

A guy I used to know who did church installations and repaired Hammond B-3 organs used to have a saying. When asked by the pastor about some change that was perhaps somewhat impractical, he would reply "Sure we can do that. It will just take a little more time ... and a lot more money."

 Your response is well stated, However, I do take minor issue with a couple of points:

If I was to "lust" after a amp, it would be a Pass Labs unit, not the 15 K unit in question.   Having said that, still would argue that a restored Threshold S500 would provide just as good performance (YMMV).

Products can be both overpriced and inaccessible.   The profit margin is certainly one method of measuring if a product is overpriced.  Comparing what a "High End" product from years past to today, adjusted for inflation, is (to me) a valid comparison to make.  I certainly agree that manufactures can charge whatever they wish, and the market will determine if they are successful or not. 

The other point worth making is the review process of high end gear.  The old "Audio" mag no longer exists, and none of the current reviewers do what I would consider a creditable job of covering "how the unit works" and provide some idea of costs to manufacture based on parts quality.  It's become very subjective, and I do not put a lot of credit into reviews where there is little to no engineering background available.   It's pretty difficult to judge if a given piece of gear is worth the asking price without that data. 

[bside123]

I really don't like it when the equipment I want is more expensive than I want to pay.

[Stercom]

They used to perform reviews on gear with ACTUAL performance measurements, and would explain how things worked  (imagine that).  Speaker reviews would have performance and impedance curves, so one could get an idea of how to evaluate how components could fit together.  Precious little of that type of reviewing occurs today.

Stereophile has posted performance measurements for years.    What is cool about this hobby is there are excellent products up and down the price scale. You just have to determine how much you can afford and much you are willing to spend. 

[Freo-1]

Stereophile has posted performance measurements for years.    What is cool about this hobby is there are excellent products up and down the price scale. You just have to determine how much you can afford and much you are willing to spend.

They (Stereophile) do some basic measurements,  but compared to Audio, they are lightweight by comparison.  For example, they rarely provide a impedance curve for speakers as a function of frequency, nor do they generally measure frequency response/distortion curves  They also do not go into the design of topology anywhere near the level like Audio did. 

Agree with the comment about what you are willing to spend.  You also have to make value judgments about how much to spend and where to spend it.

[opnly bafld]

1) Products can be both overpriced and inaccessible.   The profit margin is certainly one method of measuring if a product is overpriced.  Comparing what a "High End" product from years past to today, adjusted for inflation, is (to me) a valid comparison to make.  I certainly agree that manufactures can charge whatever they wish, and the market will determine if they are successful or not. 

2) The other point worth making is the review process of high end gear.  The old "Audio" mag no longer exists, and none of the current reviewers do what I would consider a creditable job of covering "how the unit works" and provide some idea of costs to manufacture based on parts quality. It's pretty difficult to judge if a given piece of gear is worth the asking price without that data.

1) Comparing MY wage and how much it has(n't) increased in the last 30 years with the increases in average pay for pro ball players and CEOs sheds some light on the Hi End verses mainstream products IMO. Take for example a HT receiver's features/price and compare it to a 2/ch receiver of 30 years ago adjusted for inflation. Mainstream pieces actually cost less today (not considering quality), whereas Hi End has jumped considerably just like the wages of the higher paying professions.

2) I know a tube equipment manufacturer that spends countless hours (that add up to days, months, years) designing and improving his gear. He tries many different parts in the design, sometimes the more expensive part works better, sometimes a less expensive part works better, he designs based on quality of sound not expense of part. He doesn't just take a bunch of parts and throw them into a case and start selling it the next day, how can anyone look at just the parts cost and determine the cost to manufacture or judge a piece of gear's value based on part content?

Lin

[Daedalus Audio]

Agreed however those musician and recording engineers that I know will spend $10,000 for a guitar and $100,000 for a mixing board. The will spend untold thousands on monitors and other equipment.

People spend mostly what they can afford. My sister-in-law can't believe what I spend on equipment but they own a boat that cost $75K and cost them a $1,000 a weekend to use it for 3 or 4 months a year.


I have about $10K invested in used equipment and I play it everyday. Bottom line is that people invest in things that give them pleasure. We all do it in some area and to me that is OK.

Peace.

knowing and having played with many professional musicians as well as having made gear for them, my understanding is that they KNOW and understand that high end audio systems are just a facsimile, like a painting or a photo. these systems do NOT reproduce the actual sound. the musicians business is real music and they are very intimate with the sound. so for them (unless high end hi-fi is their hobby), when they want to listen to music... they make it.   (certainly true for me, high end audio is my hobby and business, making music is my passion)
this understanding that we are working with representations not perfect reproductions of music is why in high end audio, specs are almost meaningless. by it's nature it IS subjective.
thanks,
lou

[TONEPUB]

Your response is well stated, However, I do take minor issue with a couple of points:

If I was to "lust" after a amp, it would be a Pass Labs unit, not the 15 K unit in question.   Having said that, still would argue that a restored Threshold S500 would provide just as good performance (YMMV).

Products can be both overpriced and inaccessible.   The profit margin is certainly one method of measuring if a product is overpriced.  Comparing what a "High End" product from years past to today, adjusted for inflation, is (to me) a valid comparison to make.  I certainly agree that manufactures can charge whatever they wish, and the market will determine if they are successful or not. 

The other point worth making is the review process of high end gear.  The old "Audio" mag no longer exists, and none of the current reviewers do what I would consider a creditable job of covering "how the unit works" and provide some idea of costs to manufacture based on parts quality.  It's become very subjective, and I do not put a lot of credit into reviews where there is little to no engineering background available.   It's pretty difficult to judge if a given piece of gear is worth the asking price without that data.

It's impossible to judge what a piece of gear sounds like by the parts count.  There are only a handful of places to buy the best raw parts, and there is a huge overlap with companies like CJ, ARC, BAT and Ayre, just to name a few, yet their electronics sound radically different.  All the engineering stuff is stuff for nerds to argue about. 

I've managed to talk to all of the best engineers and designers in the industry, and while they don't agree on much, the one thing they all agree on is that there is no set of measurements that directly correlate to how a piece of gear will actually sound.

And as I recall from the Audio days, for all the measurements, they never really gave anything a terribly bad review either.  And some of that gear sounded dreadful. 

[mclsound]

well not to nit pic on Canada but look at Simaudio.. a few years ago with the P-8 preamp($11,000) and the W-8 amp($11,000) with a combined price of $22,000 and now the new 850 preamp($28,000) and 880 monoblocks($38,000) with a combined price of $66,000.
Is this new technology worth the extra $44,000.In my opinion only,I highly doubt it!!!And compare them to Brystons 28b mono's at $16,000.I mean you could buy 8 brystons for the price of 2 Sims.The way I see it is if you want to be fair in tough times you will earn alot of respect in the end.One day,the baby boomers will be gone and the next generation will be alot more educated on highend audio.

[Freo-1]

Excellent points made about Simaudio, escalating prices, and reviewing.  This is a good discussion to have and get varied points of view for folks to think about.

As far as the comment about engineering stuff for nerds, color me guilty as charged.     The engineering stuff can actually give one some idea about how a unit would perform in actual use.  For example, if a speaker has a impedance curve where it drops to 2 ohms or less at 60 Hz, you will need an amp that can handle that.  A strictly subjective review will not provide one that important detail.  So, while I agree that the old Audio rarely came out and trashed a product, a nerd could sure as the sun rising work out if the reviewers though it was a good product or not.