[stereocilia]

It all boils down to this simple fact...anything is worth whatever a particular person is willing to pay for it.It always has and always will be this way.Value is in the wallet of the one spending the money.

I agree, mostly.  But, what if the seller is cheating?  Let's say I try to resell my $99 polk audio bookshelf speakers to a newbie for $6000 with a false story about why they are worth it.  If the buyer swallows my story becuase she trusts me, are they still "worth" $6000?  My answer is no.  Any buyer needs to beware, but the onus is still on the seller not to lie.  The question is, when does a sales pitch become deception, and where is the line between being gullible and being a victim?

[HT cOz]

Generally, I do not think prices are too high, but it's an interesting question.

Instead of Ayre, let's considler the Linn Audio of New Hampshire's LANH 500 http://123triadpro.com/triad09/linn_audio/version-1/amplifiers.html for $3500 and the Behringer A500 http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-A500-Reference-Amplifier/dp/B000CZ0RL0 for $199.  If these are the same amps, then is Linn Audio of New Hampshire charging too much, or can the "invisible hand" purists wave this off by saying "buyer beware?"  Maybe the difference reflects some sort of consultation fee--who knows?  Maybe it's simply a scam.

The beware-ness of the buyer can't be unlimited because all the information to make the best decision is not always available.  So, yeah, I think it's possible for a price to be immorally high, but I happen to think we live in a world where they rarely are.  Maybe that's naive, but I'm going with it.

I think this is more than a little rediculous!

[HT cOz]

Try building some of this stuff yourself - yeah, the parts may (or may not) be affordable, but what is your time worth?  I've built stuff that had a low base cost, but that took a lot of time and effort to build.  If I did it for a living, I'd certainly charge a premium for that time.

This is very true.  Having recently built my own speakers, I now have a new respect for speaker builders!!!

[Pez]

Try building some of this stuff yourself - yeah, the parts may (or may not) be affordable, but what is your time worth?  I've built stuff that had a low base cost, but that took a lot of time and effort to build.  If I did it for a living, I'd certainly charge a premium for that time.

Agreed, if you figure for a plumber to come to you house to fix your leaky drains you're going to get charged $75 an hour. Apply that to building audio equipment which is very skilled labor! If a piece of equipment takes 40 man hours to build, which is far from unheard of, that's $3000 in just labor! Plus parts, margin on parts, distributors cut, store fronts and so many other things it makes my head spin. Yes prices are high, but this ain't fast food baby this is something that in order to build something of quality requires skill and attention to detail.

So yes it's fair, the prices are what they are. Fair and justified, now the only thing left is whether or not you like it and are willing to pay for it.

[zybar]

I agree, mostly.  But, what if the seller is cheating?  Let's say I try to resell my $99 polk audio bookshelf speakers to a newbie for $6000 with a false story about why they are worth it.  If the buyer swallows my story becuase she trusts me, are they still "worth" $6000?  My answer is no.  Any buyer needs to beware, but the onus is still on the seller not to lie.  The question is, when does a sales pitch become deception, and where is the line between being gullible and being a victim?

I know your example was taken to the extreme to make a point, but using your example, I don't blame the seller for getting as much as he/she can for an item they own.  If the buyer is silly enough to spend $6,000 on a $100 pair of speakers, the fault lies with the buyer, not the seller. 

The seller can and should try to sell their item for whatever price they want.  The seller's responsibility isn't to protect the buyer, it is to sell the item.  As part of the selling process, the seller can't misrepresent the facts, but they certainly can offer opinions and are free to charge whatever they like.  Again, using your example, the seller couldn't say that the speakers retailed for $6,000, but the seller certainly could state that they believe that the $100 Polk speakers outperform $6,000 speakers and as such you should pay their asking price.

This really is no different than any other market or hobby. 

George

[JLM]

So George, you're saying that its OK to deceive if you can profit from it?

Do you want to sell here at AC again?   

[mcgsxr]

As part of the selling process, the seller can't misrepresent the facts, but the certainly can offer opinions.

JLM, I think he is not suggesting outright deceipt is acceptable.

Clearly we all want folks to be forthright, but there are certainly commercial examples of where that just does not happen.

I left high end audio years ago, and like you have gravitated to the cottage industry well represented here on AC, where I find a refreshing honesty and openness for the most part.

I think that folks can charge whatever they want for their high end audio items, I am far from their target market anyway.

I don't want to see absolute lies of course.

[zybar]

So George, you're saying that its OK to deceive if you can profit from it?

Do you want to sell here at AC again?   

I didn't say it is ok to deceive and that's not how I personally conduct myself.  I think I said the exact opposite.  I said it is the seller's responsibility to represent the facts and the buyer's responsibility to be knowledgeable and prepared.

As long as the seller isn't misrepresenting the facts, they are ok in my book.  Setting high or silly asking prices isn't illegal or unethical - it's just a bad business practice.  People who behave in this manner will be quickly figured out and the appropriate results will come from it.

One of the reasons why I am able to sell gear effectively (both here on AC and Audiogon) is because I have built up a positive reputation.  That reputation is due to the fact that I accurately represent that facts associated with the gear I am selling, as well as set "fair" prices.  If I did one without the other, I wouldn't be able sell gear very effectively.

George

[lcrim]

There is a mentality that sees High End audio equipment as a trophy.  This site is probably less guilty of that than others but there are still social pressures here to have the correct and approved stuff.  The OP described this stuff as "High End."    Essentially you don't get a "hang-out card" around here unless you spend to that level of approved gear.

I'm always interested to hear that professional musicians, conductors etc. rarely have this level of "high end" playback equipment but tend to have more mainstream stuff.  The general community is always put off by tales of expensive audio equipment.  Face it, its somehow strange to make this level of expenditure to listen to music.  The explanation that one can afford it somehow doesn't explain it.   The ego is most definitely involved, IMO.

[ecramer]

Interesting topic, In general if the market will bear it at that price point so be it. I've seen some bad business in the high end audio. that oppo player stuffed in a different case come to mind. hey if i had the money i wouldn't blink at buying new

[acresm22]

I recall in the mid-90s when Krell came out with the 300i integrated amp at $2,400...it became there top seller after its release I think (was liked by critics too), but the company took some heat from die-hard Krellites for sinking to that price point.

[stereocilia]

I know your example was taken to the extreme to make a point, but using your example, I don't blame the seller for getting as much as he/she can for an item they own.  If the buyer is silly enough to spend $6,000 on a $100 pair of speakers, the fault lies with the buyer, not the seller. 

The seller can and should try to sell their item for whatever price they want.  The seller's responsibility isn't to protect the buyer, it is to sell the item.  As part of the selling process, the seller can't misrepresent the facts, but they certainly can offer opinions and are free to charge whatever they like.  Again, using your example, the seller couldn't say that the speakers retailed for $6,000, but the seller certainly could state that they believe that the $100 Polk speakers outperform $6,000 speakers and as such you should pay their asking price.

This really is no different than any other market or hobby. 

George

I agree that the seller can and should price something however he wants (in most markets, including this one).   But, I would say the price is too high under two conditions:  A) The seller lies about the item, and B) The buyer decides to buy on the basis of that lie.

I think this case is a rarity, fortunately, but to say that any price two people agree upon is unconditionally okay makes fraud too easy to justify for my taste.

[JLM]

Sorry George for my misunderstanding.   

[zybar]

Sorry George for my misunderstanding.   

Absolutely no issue and no need for an apology.

This is a good discussion topic and I think some good information and ideas are being shared.

George

[Freo-1]

Let's not forget that high-dollar products are necessary to give a company prestige. If you sell a high performance item for too cheap buyers are suspicious or just not interested. These companies can't take all the heat for the prices, the consumer psyche is pretty twisted and we're largely to blame. What your are really complaining about is that the 'sweet spot' that would get you to open your wallet, that would be the perfect balance between bargain and 'prestige' ("I spent X on that", eyebrows raise), is more than you can afford. If said item was repeatedly on sale for $150 instead of $2k, chances are you would spend more on another item even if it provided inferior performance to meet that balance.

Close, but not exactly.  The consumer psyche is skewed by a host of factors, not the least of which is the more than casual relationship between the high end manufactures and the audio review press.  The prices for the top of the line have gone off the deep end, and the example of taking a restored Threshold S500 and matching it up against a 15K amp of similar power performance values (I believe) would pound the point home.  The Threshold was considered top of the line in it's day, and running it's selling price through an inflation calculator, it still does not get anywhere near 15K.

[wushuliu]

Close, but not exactly.  The consumer psyche is skewed by a host of factors, not the least of which is the more than casual relationship between the high end manufactures and the audio review press.  The prices for the top of the line have gone off the deep end, and the example of taking a restored Threshold S500 and matching it up against a 15K amp of similar power performance values (I believe) would pound the point home.  The Threshold was considered top of the line in it's day, and running it's selling price through an inflation calculator, it still does not get anywhere near 15K.

When you have the kind of steep increase in income for the uppermost bracket that's occurred over the past 2 decades I think it makes perfect sense really to charge that kind of money. For everyone else no that $15k doesn't match up. For the big money players, different story. There's a greater correlation between the rise in that income bracket and high-end anything, than with the hoi-polloi I'm sure. They're charging that kind of money because somebody is buying for that kind of money.

[mclsound]

There are so many good used amps with a build quality next to none that they are well worth the used price.

[Freo-1]

Thanks for the feedback.  Lots of good exchange. 

While I fully support the basic free market principals,  the prices for the upper high end gear still seem excessive to me.  I do not think the high end audio press are "doing their job" with this issue.  When's the last time a reviewer stated that a 15 K amp, while sounding wonderful, in NOT worth 15K, and the same level of perfromance can be had by (X) for X percentage less (how about never?).  So, while with most purchases, one can get some reasonable set of facts to research a potential purchase, a objective and balanced set of facts/opinions for high end audio is pretty much non existent. 

Without a method to get proper feedback on high end audio gear, the buyer is left to their own devices as to the "worth" of the potential purchase.

[JRace]

When's the last time a reviewer stated that a 15 K amp, while sounding wonderful, in NOT worth 15K, and the same level of perfromance can be had by (X) for X percentage less (how about never?).  So, while with most purchases, one can get some reasonable set of facts to research a potential purchase, a objective and balanced set of facts/opinions for high end audio is pretty much non existent. 

Without a method to get proper feedback on high end audio gear, the buyer is left to their own devices as to the "worth" of the potential purchase.

The worth or value of a piece of audio equipment is completely subjective.
There is of course the intrinsic cost of the product to manufacture, but like cars, watches, jewelry, fashion, etc the value is more than just the cost to produce and distribute. There is an inherent value to the ownership and possession of the product which is different for everyone.

Therefore the value is personal. Right or wrong, this is the way that it is, and in any niche market that is what you get.

As a wise musician once sung:
They're turning kids into slaves just to make cheaper sneakers
But what's the real cost, 'cause the sneakers don't seem that much cheaper
Why are we still paying so much for sneakers when you got little kid slaves making them
What are your overheads?

[Zero]

When's the last time a reviewer stated that a 15 K amp, while sounding wonderful, in NOT worth 15K, and the same level of perfromance can be had by (X) for X percentage less (how about never?).

Believe it or not, it's been done before. I should know, because I've done it. Click on the link and then scroll down to the last section of the review.

http://www.sonicflare.com/archives/mcintosh-xls-320-and-xls-112-system-review.php


PS:  Damn, I can't believe I let that review see the light of day!  How embarrassing! I'm cool with synopsis, but holy crap, that is some wickedly bad writing composition!