[Freo-1]

I've been reading some reviews of some high end solid state power amps recently, and the prices they seem to go for are a bit excessive. 

For example, the Ayre VX-R goes for 15K.  Now, I'm not saying that the Ayre is not a high quality product, but 15 K seems a bit much.  If you take a vintage Threshold or Krell of similar power from the 80's and run it through an inflation calcuator, it still does not amount to anywhere near 15K. 

In fact, I reckon if you take a Threshold STASIS-2 or S-500, send it to Vintage Amp Repair to get it up to speed, and compare it to the Ayre, the Threshold would sound at least as good as the Ayre (for a LOT less cash). 

[kgturner]

Prices are too high for me, that's why I buy used much of the time. But I guess they aren't too high for the majority of buyers, otherwise all these companies would be out of business.

Kevin T

[sts9fan]

If they are staying in busines then they are not too high. Also there is plenty of great sounding budget options these days. 

[Freo-1]

If they are staying in busines then they are not too high. Also there is plenty of great sounding budget options these days.

Well, that depends on how one looks at it.  If the prices were more in line, perhaps the extra volume would more than make up for the profit margin.   The price/perfromance ratio seems much more skewed now than it was 15 to 20 years ago.  Makes one wonder if they feel they must charge that high of a price to get the "so called audio reviewers" (which now sadly seem to be nothing more than a marketing ad periodical) to take the product seriously. 

[Tone Depth]

If you can calculate a performance/price ratio for a piece of equipment, I suspect many of the manufacturer's sponsoring manufacturer AC Circles are at the top of such a list.  For example, I've been a repeat customer of Audio by Van Alstine since the late 1970s, because I consider them to consistently offer a very high performance/price ratio.

[bregez]

I am sure a lot of people agree especially concerning SS amps, just look at that mammoth "Class D Amp Kit" thread on AC.  To many "high end" companies are concerned with presentation (i.e. Brushed aluminum front panels with blue LED's, tubes poking out all over, etc..).  This runs up costs.  I agree with Tone Depth, if I ever decide to part with my old Dynaco gear Frank Van Alstine's phone will be ringing. 

Brad

[stereocilia]

Generally, I do not think prices are too high, but it's an interesting question.

Instead of Ayre, let's considler the Linn Audio of New Hampshire's LANH 500 http://123triadpro.com/triad09/linn_audio/version-1/amplifiers.html for $3500 and the Behringer A500 http://www.amazon.com/Behringer-A500-Reference-Amplifier/dp/B000CZ0RL0 for $199.  If these are the same amps, then is Linn Audio of New Hampshire charging too much, or can the "invisible hand" purists wave this off by saying "buyer beware?"  Maybe the difference reflects some sort of consultation fee--who knows?  Maybe it's simply a scam.

The beware-ness of the buyer can't be unlimited because all the information to make the best decision is not always available.  So, yeah, I think it's possible for a price to be immorally high, but I happen to think we live in a world where they rarely are.  Maybe that's naive, but I'm going with it.

[stereocilia]

Well, that depends on how one looks at it.  If the prices were more in line, perhaps the extra volume would more than make up for the profit margin.   The price/perfromance ratio seems much more skewed now than it was 15 to 20 years ago.  Makes one wonder if they feel they must charge that high of a price to get the "so called audio reviewers" (which now sadly seem to be nothing more than a marketing ad periodical) to take the product seriously.

So, is it unethical to price a product so that it does not achieve maximum profit?  Is it unethical to price a product so it will be on a reviewer's radar?  I would say no to both.

[wushuliu]

Let's not forget that high-dollar products are necessary to give a company prestige. If you sell a high performance item for too cheap buyers are suspicious or just not interested. These companies can't take all the heat for the prices, the consumer psyche is pretty twisted and we're largely to blame. What your are really complaining about is that the 'sweet spot' that would get you to open your wallet, that would be the perfect balance between bargain and 'prestige' ("I spent X on that", eyebrows raise), is more than you can afford. If said item was repeatedly on sale for $150 instead of $2k, chances are you would spend more on another item even if it provided inferior performance to meet that balance.

[TONEPUB]

Well, that depends on how one looks at it.  If the prices were more in line, perhaps the extra volume would more than make up for the profit margin.   The price/perfromance ratio seems much more skewed now than it was 15 to 20 years ago.  Makes one wonder if they feel they must charge that high of a price to get the "so called audio reviewers" (which now sadly seem to be nothing more than a marketing ad periodical) to take the product seriously.

Certainly not here.  We just got done reviewing the little Silverline Minuet speakers that are only $600 a pair.  There is great gear all over the spectrum.  Sure, it's fun reviewing a pair of $100K speakers, but the problem with products at that price is that you are writing a review for the ten or twenty guys that can actually afford to buy speakers that are that expensive.

That's why we review budget (Under $1000 per item) and vintage gear every issue. There are always alternatives.  The super spendy stuff is really cool and it's always exciting to see what someone can come up with when there are no limitations, but it's just as much fun to see what can be done on a tight budget as well.

[Tyson]

Try building some of this stuff yourself - yeah, the parts may (or may not) be affordable, but what is your time worth?  I've built stuff that had a low base cost, but that took a lot of time and effort to build.  If I did it for a living, I'd certainly charge a premium for that time.

[bregez]

Try building some of this stuff yourself - yeah, the parts may (or may not) be affordable, but what is your time worth?  I've built stuff that had a low base cost, but that took a lot of time and effort to build.  If I did it for a living, I'd certainly charge a premium for that time.

I enjoy building equipment myself.  It is an education in itself.  You think education is expensive, try ignorance ( I had to as a college professor).   

[bushbison]

yes...but as long as people pay them, people will charge that much. 

[Diamond Dog]

I think high-end prices are too high when I'm about to buy some high-end. Other than that, I guess the prices are reasonable... 
I guess each of us makes their own decision as to where the "value vs. price line " gets drawn and conducts themselves accordingly. And different people make that decision based on their own criteria. And don't start sentences with "and ".

D.

[firedog]

I generally agree with the idea that if the market will bear it, prices aren't too high....but a couple of comments:

1) With a lot of high end, as much as 70% of the final price  to the consumer can be due to cosmetics. This comes from Anthony Michelson of Musical Fidelity, and he says it is one of the reasons for his low price line  the "V" series, which are simple components in plain black metal boxes. You can disparage this trend, but for a lot of audiophiles looks and the "WAF" determines whether they can have a piece of kit or not, and I understand that. So high end companies put an emphasis on cosmetics because it is an economic necessity for them.

2) A lot of high end stuff is basically built by hand to order. The number of units built in a year can be very small. That's especially true for some of the small companies dominated by one designer/idea guy, but it can even be true for some of the bigger companies in many cases. That kind of production is always going to be very expensive.

3)The above are reasons that DIY is often a good idea if you know what components to use and how to build things. You can get a high level component without  most of the cosmetic and labor costs added in. For those of us who aren't DIYers, that doesn't help.

4) I'm a big believer in the 2nd hand market for hi-end. Audiophiles upgrade often, and generally you can get good equipment for about 50% off list. Most hi-end stuff is very well made and a safe bet to be trouble free if it is working when you get it. I've bought and sold on line this way and had good experiences. 50% off greatly improves the price/performance ratio.

[gaetan8888]

Hello

I've seen some polls about how peoples choose their amps and most of them was choosing the amps for the presentation first and then it was for the sound quality, but a lot are just listen to salesmen suggestions for choosing an amps.

Kits are not allways popular since many guys can't even do parts soldering, but there is amps modules like the Naksa from Aspen Amplifiers, it's a very high end sound for a very economic price.

Bye

Gaetan

[JLM]

Thanks to the internet the market for expensive gear has expanded.  And thanks to the ever widening gap between the "haves" and "have nots" of the past 4 decades (at least here in the U.S.) those with massive amounts of disposable income is also bigger.

But thankfully for us "starving audiophiles" the internet has been an even bigger boon by bringing us all sorts of more affordable options.  Except for my $30 Ikea "audio rack" my system is currently made up entirely of used, manufacturer "B" stock, and U.S. cottage built pieces.  If we could live with painted cabinets, nearly any of us could slap together a panelized speaker kit for pennies on the dollar. 

For instance it makes me sick to know that $10,000 speakers typically use drivers and crossover parts that cost $200-300 (not to say the R&D shouldn't be paid for, which I've gone out of my way to contribute to the advancement of audio).

Personally I'm glad when the high prices go towards advancing audio, but my heart is with the more modest, "hair shirt" stuff.  If folks want to pay for boutique buying experiences and excessive front panels (hey most of us look at the equipment while listening) its OK with me.

[ZLS]

    There are three separate factors that go into determining the answer to this question. 
    First, the is price
    Second, there is performance
    Third, there is value which is an expression of the ratio between the first two. 

    Up until a certain point, all there track each in a direct correlation. 
    It costs more to purchase and utilize  quality and reliable components in a piece of equipment, then it does to use cheap and unreliable ones. 

    There is a certain point, however, where the rise in purchase price negatively affects the value to performance ratio; the so called point of diminishing returns. 

    The difficulty is as a consumer is determining exactly where that point is. 
    There are unfortunately more than a few glaring examples of simple rebadging, or the use of audibly inferior internal components for high priced equipment. 

    It is up to us as informed, knowledgable consumers to be able to separate the "wheat from the chaff"  I agree with JLM in that the manufactures on Audio Circle offer components that posses an extremely high price, performance, and value ratio. 

    For each one of us individually, the price that we are willing or able to pay for a price of diminishing returns in a piece of equipment varies.   
 

[decal]

It all boils down to this simple fact...anything is worth whatever a particular person is willing to pay for it.It always has and always will be this way.Value is in the wallet of the one spending the money.

[JoshK]

Try building some of this stuff yourself - yeah, the parts may (or may not) be affordable, but what is your time worth?  I've built stuff that had a low base cost, but that took a lot of time and effort to build.  If I did it for a living, I'd certainly charge a premium for that time.

That pretty much sums it up.   I do think there is some gouging in hi-fi and certainly a lot of fluff marketing to make a fast buck, but most quality expensive gear cost what it costs for at least somewhat justifiable reasons.