HDTVs: has analog audio out become extinct?

dburna · « **on:** 29 Dec 2010, 07:29 pm »

Have been considering getting a Panasonic TC-P50G25 (50" plasma) -- though I am open to alternate suggestions -- when things turn around for my job situation. I am a 2-channel devotee with an analog-only input amp, but I know most HDTVs are designed with surround sound (and mass-market A/V receivers that provide for digital audio input) in mind. So I noticed that the G25 only has optical digital out for audio. Looked around at some other HDTVs and noticed that most (if not all) of the models had digital audio out only. Since I'd like to avoid buying another DAC solely for the purpose of connecting the TV to an amp, this brings up a couple questions:

1. Are there ANY TVs that support analog audio out? Are there any manufacturers (particularly plasma) that still "believe in analog audio"?

2. Has the death knell sounded for HDTVs supporting analog audio out or is this just a recent aberration?

3. Are there any HDTV brands that have decent embedded speakers? Why would anyone want to listen to an HDTVs crappy speakers (OK, this is my admitted bias) if they can avoid it?

Since listening through my A/V stereo rig is not something on which I'm willing to compromise, I'm just trying to avoid an extra DAC (which would add to the cost of the set) if I can avoid it. Would like to know what my options are.

Thanks in advance, -dB

srb · « **Reply #1 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 08:22 pm »

Quote from: dburna on 29 Dec 2010, 07:29 pm

1. Are there ANY TVs that support analog audio out? Are there any manufacturers (particularly plasma) that still "believe in analog audio"?

Yes, but most have dropped analog audio outputs. Samsung has some plasma models that do, as well as Best Buy's Insignia models. Other brands may have models that do, but it is more hit and miss.

Quote from: dburna on 29 Dec 2010, 07:29 pm

2. Has the death knell sounded for HDTVs supporting analog audio out or is this just a recent aberration?

My 2 year old Panasonic plasma did not have an analog audio output, and the trend has been gaining in the last ~ 3 years. TV manufacturers expect that 99+% of users will be connecting them to an AVR or HTIB.

Quote from: dburna on 29 Dec 2010, 07:29 pm

3. Are there any HDTV brands that have decent embedded speakers? Why would anyone want to listen to an HDTVs crappy speakers (OK, this is my admitted bias) if they can avoid it?

I have not heard any TVs whose speakers will even approach the sound you would get from a pair of small Audioengine A2s. A lot of TV buyers who use the internal speakers have never listened to TV sound from anything other than the internal speakers.

It seems silly to have to base the choice of a model on whether or not it has an analog audio output, but that's exactly what I did when I chose a 32" LCD for the bedroom. There also aren't many choices for external DACs that will accept Dolby Digital signals. Most TVs or cable STBs do have a setting to output 2 channel PCM, but there are a few out there that do not.

Steve

mcgsxr · « **Reply #2 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 08:45 pm »

I doubt you will find a larger display with analog outputs. I could not last year when I was shopping.

Could you setup your system so that the analogue outputs from your sources all connect to your 2 channel receiver, and just let the visuals go to the TV?

Most TV's can shut off the internal speakers etc.

My wife resisted my putting up speakers until 5 seconds after she heard them. No contest. Loves them now. I did go with small HT speakers for that system, but pulled in my larger DIY sub that I finished off as an end table.

dburna · « **Reply #3 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 08:49 pm »

Quote from: srb on 29 Dec 2010, 08:22 pm

There also aren't many choices for external DACs that will accept Dolby Digital signals. Most TVs or cable STBs do have a setting to output 2 channel PCM, but there are a few out there that do not.

Oooh, I hadn't even thought about the Dolby Digital issue. I had considered getting a basic Audio-GD DAC to alleviate this issue, but I guess I am going to have to research this even further to make sure that I can get a PCM-out signal as well.

Does anyone know if the Panasonic G25 outputs PCM-out? Do most/any of the Panasonics provide this capability?

Thanks, SRB. Glad I asked this in advance before heading down the external DAC path uninformed.

-dB (who doesn't foresee ever getting a HTIB if he can avoid it)

murphy11 · « **Reply #4 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 08:50 pm »

Like Steve, I was going to suggest connecting your cable box analog outs to your amp...

dburna · « **Reply #5 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 09:01 pm »

Quote from: mcgsxr on 29 Dec 2010, 08:45 pm

Could you setup your system so that the analogue outputs from your sources all connect to your 2 channel receiver, and just let the visuals go to the TV?

Yes, this is a possibility, but there will need to be some compromises along the way. Right now I have a Dayens Ampino in the basement A/V system (short review: it is -- as the hype would have you believe -- ridiculously good for the money). It's only got two inputs, though. Unless I can route through a TV, right now I have an Apple TV, DVD player (to be replaced with a Blu-Ray player eventually), VCR (in-play until my young daughter grows out of watching Elmo videos) plus the cable signal. Of course, who care about SQ with a VCR? I could just let the cable pass-through on this unit do its work and just play the VCR through the TV speakers when required. This would leave me with the following choices:

1. Figure out if my Dish cable box supports analog out (semi-doubtful).

2. Look for a TV that supports PCM-out.

3. Switch analog inputs manually to the amp each time I wanted to use the "third and fourth sources". A pain, but perhaps not the worst situation.

4. Stick with my 10-year old 480i 26" crap-box TV (I shudder to think about this possibility) that supports analog out.

5. Replace my Ampino for something with more inputs (no, no, no!).

Well, I suppose I could move up the Dayens line for something else.

6. Find some additive switchbox to add some more analog inputs. Since this adds more cost and complexity (my wife will throw up her hands when presented with this as a solution), I think option #5 is a better solution overall.

Unless condition #1 is met, this would leave me with the HDTV speakers when I wanted to watch standard cable TV, but (better) stereo-system sound when I watched a movie (or Apple TV). If I can find the right TV to meet #2, then I need a DAC to alleviate the input bottleneck. The fallback is scenario #3, cheaper but too involved if my wife wants to use the system (and I'm not around).

Ahhhh, everything in life is a compromise.

-dB

P.S. Does anyone know of any specific 40-50" (plasma preferred, but will consider LCD/LED) HDTVs that still support analog out?

pjchappy · « **Reply #6 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 09:18 pm »

Quote from: dburna on 29 Dec 2010, 09:01 pm

1. Figure out if my Dish cable box supports analog out (semi-doubtful).

The 3 different HD boxes I have had experience with all had analog out. So, I would be surprised if your Dish box did not also have analog out.

My ~2-year old 46" Samsung LCD has analog out, too.

Paul

dburna · « **Reply #7 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 09:22 pm »

Quote from: pjchappy on 29 Dec 2010, 09:18 pm

The 3 different HD boxes I have had experience with all had analog out. So, I would be surprised if your Dish box did not also have analog out.

Thanks, Paul. Sounds promising. Will check this out tonight and re-route signals if feasible.

bummrush · « **Reply #8 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 09:40 pm »

Im pretty happy with the sound of my Hitachi ,,speakers are on the sides,it has 36 watts,but is it 36 watts total or per side who the heck knows,would a small pair of Audio Engine speakers up the sound quality,well i guess i dont know how they wouldnt but then again you never know.All i know is if the sound was arranged to come out on the bottom or top of tv i wouldnt have bought it right there.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #9 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 09:42 pm »

I feel for you!

I solved the complexity issues with a Logitech 880 remote.

My 7 year old can turn on the TV, or put it into Movie mode...

And I LOVE that there is not a tray of remotes, or a box full etc lying around.

Don_S · « **Reply #10 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 09:47 pm »

I am not sure how relevant this is since my 46" Sharp Aquos is several years old and I use an antenna.

My Sharp does have 2-channel analog out. And that is a good thing since the digital out is for the TV only. The digital (optical) output does not pass the audio signal the TV receives from my DVRs via HDMI.

Another good reason for the analog out is Sharp did a horrible job with the embedded speakers.

srb · « **Reply #11 on:** 29 Dec 2010, 09:51 pm »

The Panasonic TCP42G25 (and I would assume equivalent larger size models) only lets you select internal Speakers or Theatre (digital audio output) in the Audio setup menu and does not let you force a global 2 channel PCM output.

Stereo PCM digital audio output from the TV's optical output will depend whether each source will let you select an LPCM or PCM from their respective menus. If you are using the Panasonic's internal TV tuner, then "When an ATSC channel is selected, the output from the DIGITAL AUDIO OUT jack will be Dolby Digital. When an NTSC channel is selected, the output will be PCM."

Also, most TV digital audio outputs will be fixed level and the volume cannot be controlled with the TV remote.

As I mentioned earlier, most all of the Samsung plasmas have an analog audio output (1/8" stereo mini-jack, but a true line out and not an amplified headphone jack) in addition to the digital optical output.

These specific Samsung models do:

Samsung PN50C590 50"
Samsung PN50C550 50"
Samsung PN50C490 50"
Samsung PN42C450 42"

As far as internal speakers go, sound quality has more to do with the physical size and quality of the drivers than the specified internal amplifier watts per channel.

Steve

dburna · « **Reply #12 on:** 30 Dec 2010, 04:48 am »

Quote from: srb on 29 Dec 2010, 09:51 pm

As I mentioned earlier, most all of the Samsung plasmas have an analog audio output (1/8" stereo mini-jack, but a true line out and not an amplified headphone jack) in addition to the digital optical output.

These specific Samsung models do:

Samsung PN50C590 50"
Samsung PN50C550 50"
Samsung PN50C490 50"
Samsung PN42C450 42"

Steve

Thanks so much, Steve. Guess I will look towards Samsung to provide a solution. As someone else mentioned, seems a little silly to select an HDTV based on this criteria, but I think for me analog out is non-negotiable -- all other options seem overly complex or inconvenient. I will start to hone in on one of these models.

Best, -dB

srb · « **Reply #13 on:** 30 Dec 2010, 04:59 am »

Quote from: dburna on 30 Dec 2010, 04:48 am

As someone else mentioned, seems a little silly to select an HDTV based on this criteria, but I think for me analog out is non-negotiable -- all other options seem overly complex or inconvenient. I will start to hone in on one of these models.

Yeah, that was me! I was looking at an external converter for another application I have, but I don't know how good it will sound. That would allow you to get the TV that you want whether or not it has an analog output.

Gefen GTV-DD-2-AA Dolby Digital Audio Decoder
http://www.gefen.com/kvm/dproduct.jsp?prod_id=5980

The cheapest I have found it for is $93 shipped
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=660218&Q=&is=REG&A=details

Steve

low.pfile · « **Reply #14 on:** 30 Dec 2010, 06:00 am »

It sounds like you have a great lead with the Samsung TV's vis SRB.

As a PSA, we gave my mom a new LCD for the back room for Christmas, it was a last minute idea and I did something I never do: buy something without research (as it was christmas eve eve--the day I arrived back home in NY.) With nothing in stock at the regular stores, we picked up a 32" Westinghouse LED LCD, at BJ warehouse, which has both analog Audio Out (RCA) and Toslink out! So analog out is not extinct. It was a $300 tv. Image is average + half a tick. Sound is horrendous! (at which I cringe). Sounds like a 1970's transistor radio (which could not be heard in the "warehouse store" with 30 other TVs playing. But my parents can't tell. These outputs allow for adding speakers or more. I just want to add a $20 powered computer speaker pair, which will improve the sound x 10.

ctviggen · « **Reply #15 on:** 30 Dec 2010, 12:22 pm »

Quote from: murphy11 on 29 Dec 2010, 08:50 pm

Like Steve, I was going to suggest connecting your cable box analog outs to your amp...

If you watch TV through the TV, there will be no sound going through the cable box. That's how my sole TV is set up. Although, I ran a digital cable to my sound system for this.

Doublej · « **Reply #16 on:** 30 Dec 2010, 02:58 pm »

I am pretty sure that the Samsung 630 series has analog out.

tvyankee · « **Reply #17 on:** 30 Dec 2010, 03:28 pm »

hey,

ok here is the deal. you buy this. http://cgi.ebay.com/TV-Digital-Optical-Analog-Stereo-Audio-Converter-/370464928082?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56416e3152

and this. http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-3-Audio-Source-2PR-Speaker-Selector-Switch-Switcher-/220668914706?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3360e46c12

then you are done. remember with any of the new tv's they go on the internet not that your gonna use it but if you do, like for netflixs or pandora your not going to want to listen to those shitty speakers on the tv. so spend a little money on yourself because you deserve it and enjoy.

ps. don't forget to get yourself a cheap long optical cable to go from the tv to the dac (monoprice)

good luck

btw, i have bought from these guys before and they are great.

srb · « **Reply #18 on:** 30 Dec 2010, 04:23 pm »

Quote from: tvyankee on 30 Dec 2010, 03:28 pm

ok here is the deal. you buy this. http://cgi.ebay.com/TV-Digital-Optical-Analog-Stereo-Audio-Converter-/370464928082?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56416e3152

The problem with the device that you're recommending is that it only accepts 2 channel PCM. That's why I referenced the Gefen GTV-DD-2-AA which is one of the few DACs that accepts a Dolby Digital signal.

Steve

tvyankee · « **Reply #19 on:** 30 Dec 2010, 04:52 pm »

Hello,

I know but i use it with all flat screens i install and it works just fine. The other thing is he is not using it for surround sound with av receiver only 2 ch. so it doesn't really matter that much. The other thing also that a lot of people forget is that if your going to use the pandora from tv with a av receiver to do zone 2 out most receivers do not know what to do with a digital signal so you must convert. also i think you may be able to select if you want bitstream or not depending on the tv. i foget right off the top of my head but i think this may pass dd its just not in the spec. i will do a test and get back to you latter on.