cartridges VS alignments......

Wayner · « **on:** 23 Dec 2010, 09:36 pm »

Sub-dividing from another thread comes the new question to ponder. perhaps you have had some experiences with different cartridges and alignments, good and bad. Things to consider: The arm itself, anti-skating, and stylus type (conical, elliptical, shibata (fine-line)).

There are also a whole bunch of alignments out there, some I have never hear of before. The usual ones are Stevenson, Bearwald (Lofgren A), Lofgren B and Heywood, many others.

What makes you pick a particular alignment?

Wayner

BaMorin · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 Dec 2010, 10:39 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 23 Dec 2010, 09:36 pm

Sub-dividing from another thread comes the new question to ponder. perhaps you have had some experiences with different cartridges and alignments, good and bad. Things to consider: The arm itself, anti-skating, and stylus type (conical, elliptical, shibata (fine-line)).

There are also a whole bunch of alignments out there, some I have never hear of before. The usual ones are Stevenson, Bearwald (Lofgren A), Lofgren B and Heywood, many others.

What makes you pick a particular alignment?

Wayner

The Linn arms I have are too easy to set up with Baerwald to use anything else.
Besides, my DBsystems protactor is Baerwald as well. I did find that when making armboards for AR tables that setting the arm at 210.7 and then the cart at 229mm drops the rock right on both grid points.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Dec 2010, 10:43 pm »

Never thought of picking an alignment.
I just use a DB Systems protractor and fly with it.
Always have on Rega arms BTW.
What else should I try?

D

Wayner · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Dec 2010, 10:56 pm »

Well, some pivot to spindle distances plus the length of the slots for the cartridge mount keep some folks from using certain alignments, 'cause they can't physically get their cartridge in that position.

I used to be a Bearwald guy, until JaS from the VinylEngine convinced me that the Lofgren B has lower overall average tracking distortion and tracking error.

So every table I have except 1 (I have 10) are set up for Lofgren B and the other one is set for Bearwald (Lofgren A).

As a side note, I was also told that Bearwald stole all his wonderful info from Lofgren and if so, I don't like to give him any credit for that particular alingment, so I call it Lofgren A.

Wayner

BaMorin · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Dec 2010, 11:10 pm »

Quote from: bacobits1 on 23 Dec 2010, 10:43 pm

Never thought of picking an alignment.
I just use a DB Systems protractor and fly with it.
Always have on Rega arms BTW.
What else should I try?

D

Are you able to get alignment with the rega arm without slightly twisting the cart using the DB protractor?

bacobits1 · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Dec 2010, 11:30 pm »

It comes out right on. This is an RB 700 on my P5, but I used the DB Pro on all my RB 300's I have had in the past. It pretty much matches the Stevenson position too.
I'll take a look at that Lofgren B Wayner suggested.
I do not hear inner groove or outer groove distortions.

D

blakep · « **Reply #6 on:** 24 Dec 2010, 04:15 am »

I prefer Baerwald. If you look at the following link to charts prepared by John Elison at VA:

http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=vinyl&n=595959&highlight=baerwald+John+Elison&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fauthor%3DLineArrayNut%26user_id%3D16530%26forum%3DALL%26sortRank%3DNone%26sort%3Ddate%26sortOrder%3DDESC

you'll see that Lofgren has the lowest overall distortion but has significantly higher inner groove distortion (which is where you are really most likely to hear it) and higher distortion in the outer groove area as well.

Average % RMS distortion and distortion between the null points is close enough for me when comparing Baerwald to Lofgren that I'm prepared to make that tradeoff (and not sure that one might hear the difference) to avoid the inner groove distortion.

It's all about compromise of course, but Stevenson seems to me to be the weakest of the big three unless you are playing inner grooves almost all of the time and probably with a conical stylus which is more susceptible to IGD.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #7 on:** 24 Dec 2010, 04:24 am »

I use a modified Lofgren A/Baerwald. I tried Stevenson and Lofgren B with my Rega arms, but found Lofgren A to have the least distortion and clearest sound. Modified because I don't use the standard null points, I use ones more closely matched to the actual lead out grooves of my fav records. Unfortunately I've moved this past year and don't have my carefully gathered data at hand, so I can't document my changes for you, sorry. I'm sure I'll find them before having to align another cartridge, well, maybe I'll find them....

neobop · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 Dec 2010, 05:21 am »

Quote from: bacobits1 on 23 Dec 2010, 11:30 pm

It comes out right on. This is an RB 700 on my P5, but I used the DB Pro on all my RB 300's I have had in the past. It pretty much matches the Stevenson position too.
I'll take a look at that Lofgren B Wayner suggested.
I do not hear inner groove or outer groove distortions.
D

That seems a little strange. Maybe I'm misunderstanding. On arms set-up for Stevenson, it normally requires a cart to moved approx 3mm further forward and angled slightly, to get a Baerwald alignment. I've done this on approx 1 million Japanese TTs

or so it seems. Sometimes, as Wayner said, I ran out of room and had to use an intermediate alignment. I would move the cart as far forward as possible then angle it tangent at points close to Baerwald. It would work out nicely.

I read on another forum, that some people are mounting their Rega at 219mm. This is to allow for extra room not only to get some carts aligned, but to have the entire top of the cart under the headshell. I think this is beneficial with many high quality carts, even though you'd lose 3mm eff length.

Wayner · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 Dec 2010, 12:29 pm »

I mounted my Rega RB300 at 220 and had just enough slot room to do the Lofgren B. I wish I had moved it 1 more mm in, to 219. Oh well.

Wayner

BaMorin · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 Dec 2010, 12:38 pm »

Quote from: Wayner on 24 Dec 2010, 12:29 pm

I mounted my Rega RB300 at 220 and had just enough slot room to do the Lofgren B. I wish I had moved it 1 more mm in, to 219. Oh well.

Wayner

Odd......I had a Roksan Tabriz.....I believe the geomtry on the arm is the same as Rega. Offset and distance (222) and to get Baerwald my cart was shoved back as far as the slots would allow. ?????

Wayner · « **Reply #11 on:** 24 Dec 2010, 12:42 pm »

I didn't align it to a Bearwald, I aligned it to the Lofgren B.

Wayner

Wayner · « **Reply #12 on:** 24 Dec 2010, 12:44 pm »

Maybe I should post this so others and newbies can get a picture of what we are talking about here.

I simply chose a 215mm spindle to pivot distance for the graph generator.

Wayner

bacobits1 · « **Reply #13 on:** 25 Dec 2010, 02:46 am »

Ok how's this one? For something different.
I had this printed with the info but had not tried it till this evening.

http://www.vacuumstate.com/index.tpl?rubrik=4&lang=2&a=%25BB%2540%25AE%25B3%258ES%2590%2589&b=734496.1317766324

Rowan McCombe's (aka The Guru) Phono Cartridge Protractor

I have been using this alignment for the last 4 hours. Extremely good!!! Musical and balanced.
Why does this one work so well? I had it tweaked in 30 minutes.

Try it.

D

Wayner · « **Reply #14 on:** 25 Dec 2010, 01:19 pm »

I just downloaded the "guru" card and printed it out. It's a Baerwald curve (65.998, 120.891). Nothing special at all. BTW, it doesn't cost $10,000 to have a die made to cut out the protractor and get it printed as the Guru has noted on his card. He should give credit to the person who invented the alignment (Baewarld or Lofgren A).

Wayner

blakep · « **Reply #15 on:** 25 Dec 2010, 01:30 pm »

Actually the Guru has null points that are very different from Baerwald or anything else for that matter.

I haven't heard it and I don't intend to as its distortion numbers are off the charts as indicated here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/69/691903.html

Null points are addressed here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/69/692071.html

Might be an irrational fear but I would be a bit afraid of damaging my records with that alignment.

Letitroll98 · « **Reply #16 on:** 25 Dec 2010, 03:09 pm »

Quote from: bacobits1 on 25 Dec 2010, 02:46 am

Ok how's this one? For something different.
I had this printed with the info but had not tried it till this evening.

http://www.vacuumstate.com/index.tpl?rubrik=4&lang=2&a=%25BB%2540%25AE%25B3%258ES%2590%2589&b=734496.1317766324

Rowan McCombe's (aka The Guru) Phono Cartridge Protractor

I have been using this alignment for the last 4 hours. Extremely good!!! Musical and balanced.
Why does this one work so well? I had it tweaked in 30 minutes.

Try it.

D

I love the Guru site and am a proponent of his alignment techniques and philosophies, but his protractor is way off. The reason the voices and instruments sound so good (at first) is that the misalignment results in a depressed treble, giving the sound a warm and fuzzy glow. After a while, and in comparison to a good Baerwald alignment, the blush goes off the rose and you start hearing the distortion and loss of detail. A fun experiment that will cause minimal damage to your collection, but when you come to your senses (I did) and go back to a proper alignment, you'll understand the difference.

That being said, the Guru papers are a must read for all those serious about properly setting up VTF, VTA, SRA, Anti Skate bias force, and azimuth. Great info not offered anywhere else.

bacobits1 · « **Reply #17 on:** 25 Dec 2010, 04:16 pm »

Ok, checking and rechecking again to what Wayner said, "Guru" = (variation of) Baerwald . The "Guru" alignment Protractor settings I have now matches the Lofgren B template I have generated here, not the Baerwald template. It sets perfect in the Lofgren B template as well as I can hold and align this paper up. Things may be moving a hair? This is a PITA! Confusing things more?
The treble if anything, is more pronounced and giving a bit more very natural detail. Warm and Fuzzy? No.
Toe tappin' boogie yes.

I have been doing this a long time, but using a "set and forget" methodology.
Using a DB Protractor or an older Denneson Protractor.
Now, it's just something else to be obsessive about. But, it has improved my enjoyment and that is what matters and we all strive to get.

More listening today.

D

The last shot, Pivot to spindle could be off a bit which will throw things off. It is terrible to align this on a Rega arm unless you have a beam setup like on the Dennsen.

Wayner · « **Reply #18 on:** 25 Dec 2010, 07:00 pm »

Quote from: blakep on 25 Dec 2010, 01:30 pm

Actually the Guru has null points that are very different from Baerwald or anything else for that matter.

I haven't heard it and I don't intend to as its distortion numbers are off the charts as indicated here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/69/691903.html

Null points are addressed here:

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vinyl/messages/69/692071.html

Might be an irrational fear but I would be a bit afraid of damaging my records with that alignment.

I downloaded the alignment template and printed it out and measured it. That one is not the numbers quoted on the Vinylengine.

Wayner

Wayner · « **Reply #19 on:** 25 Dec 2010, 07:03 pm »

Here is the result of the wonderful "Guru" alignment from the vinylengine:

It looks really, really bad to me.

This one has the inner null point at 57.431 and the out one at 129.365. The "Guru" alignmnet from bacobits1's link downloads a template called the "Guru", but it measures as a Baerwald, 65.998/120.891

Something is afowl here.