The things you can make out of paper......

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BaMorin

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Re: The things you can make out of paper......
« Reply #40 on: 24 Dec 2010, 12:33 pm »
Marc,
Good point. Although geometry doesn't change regardless of stylus shape, distortion might, and tracking ability certainly will. I guess it could be argued either way regarding distortion. Because the stylus has a thinner side profile and is able to resolve more information, tracking error becomes more noticeable?  :duh: Or, because tracking ability is improved with greater vertical groove contact and thinner side profile, there is less minor mistracking and loss of information.  :thumb: Or, all of the above.

When I tried a micro line stylus with Stevenson, on an arm of 240mm eff length, it sounded great, even spectacular, on all but the beginning of record. There it was good, but not great. I think arm length is the key here. I wouldn't use Stevenson with arms of less than that eff length. With 9" arms, you're better off with Baerwald or Loefgren. IMO Baerwald is better with those arms. I had a couple of different ones with that geometry (Linn) and Baerwald seemed best. They were the Zeta and Alphason 100S, which I still have.
YMMV

Yes, I agree the tracking error does not change due to profile. That is simple geometry. The Stvenson Nulls though I believe came about to "cure IGD" due to stylus profile moreso than geometry.  Tying this into the other threads about carts and alignment choices. 
Still not trying to hi-jackl this.......you still up for a "bicycle" with the MCZ and the Alphason?

Marc

Wayner

Re: The things you can make out of paper......
« Reply #41 on: 24 Dec 2010, 12:34 pm »
Yes, my error, the Stevenson is 60.325 and 117.417 (IEC), I quoted the DIN method, which I doubt anyone knows about or even uses.

Wayner

neobop

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Re: The things you can make out of paper......
« Reply #42 on: 24 Dec 2010, 03:17 pm »
Yes, I agree the tracking error does not change due to profile. That is simple geometry. The Stvenson Nulls though I believe came about to "cure IGD" due to stylus profile moreso than geometry.  Tying this into the other threads about carts and alignment choices. 
Still not trying to hi-jackl this.......you still up for a "bicycle" with the MCZ and the Alphason?

Marc

Re Stevenson: Yes, no doubt about it - not arm geometry, more like groove geometry. One thing to consider; If you look at Wayner's distortion/tracking error graphs, those numbers or curves are computed for an arm of a given eff length. Increase the length of the arm and the numbers decrease. This was discussed before in Alternate Alignment thread.

An interesting aspect of this came from your fav speaker company, Magnapan. Before they came out with their tonearm, Unitrac, they spent a lot of time trying to sort out the optimal compromise between lower tracking distortion with a long arm and increased mass with worse moment of inertia. They settled on 240mm or about 9.5" as optimal. Even before I heard of the Unitrac, I noticed a big difference in distortion on arms with greater eff length. One thing though, this is a low mass arm, designed for high compliance carts. I don't know how much that influenced their decision.

It seems to me that there is a rather dramatic difference as length increases between 9" and 9.5", although I have no problem listening to a 9" arm. HW of VPI thinks 10.5" is optimal, or so I'm told. 

Regarding your generous offer to audition the MCZ - believe it or not my Sonus arm is still not repaired. Matter of fact now it even needs to have the ground wire soldered inside the pillar. It's one thing after another with that arm. I had the lifter platform off, to fabricate another and I lost the damn thing. I was using it w/o cueing when it started humming like crazy. When that arm is working (w/custom headshell) it sounds spectacular with higher compliance carts. I figured a 6g damped unipivot would be ideal. The Unitrac is 7g, but undamped. 2 other arms I have are too heavy. Is an 11g Alphason appropriate? Davey's Ittock is around 13g if that's what he's using for Grados. Maybe we can sort it out via PM or email. That TLZ I tried had maybe the sweetest vocals I ever heard on a stereo.

neo

rcag_ils

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Re: The things you can make out of paper......
« Reply #43 on: 24 Dec 2010, 03:37 pm »
Quote
One point protractors like Geodisc, Dennesen, and Clearaudio are based on the actual location of the pivot (not where it theoretically should be) and will give excellent results if used properly.

Not all protractors will work for all turntables with tonearm pre-mounted. Geodisc will not work on Pro-ject 6.1, it's tonearm was mounted based on other curve that the Geodisc was made for. The best thing to do is to use the protractor that came with the turntable.

BaMorin

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Re: The things you can make out of paper......
« Reply #44 on: 24 Dec 2010, 03:47 pm »
Re Stevenson: Yes, no doubt about it - not arm geometry, more like groove geometry. One thing to consider; If you look at Wayner's distortion/tracking error graphs, those numbers or curves are computed for an arm of a given eff length. Increase the length of the arm and the numbers decrease. This was discussed before in Alternate Alignment thread.

An interesting aspect of this came from your fav speaker company, Magnapan. Before they came out with their tonearm, Unitrac, they spent a lot of time trying to sort out the optimal compromise between lower tracking distortion with a long arm and increased mass with worse moment of inertia. They settled on 240mm or about 9.5" as optimal. Even before I heard of the Unitrac, I noticed a big difference in distortion on arms with greater eff length. One thing though, this is a low mass arm, designed for high compliance carts. I don't know how much that influenced their decision.

It seems to me that there is a rather dramatic difference as length increases between 9" and 9.5", although I have no problem listening to a 9" arm. HW of VPI thinks 10.5" is optimal, or so I'm told. 

Regarding your generous offer to audition the MCZ - believe it or not my Sonus arm is still not repaired. Matter of fact now it even needs to have the ground wire soldered inside the pillar. It's one thing after another with that arm. I had the lifter platform off, to fabricate another and I lost the damn thing. I was using it w/o cueing when it started humming like crazy. When that arm is working (w/custom headshell) it sounds spectacular with higher compliance carts. I figured a 6g damped unipivot would be ideal. The Unitrac is 7g, but undamped. 2 other arms I have are too heavy. Is an 11g Alphason appropriate? Davey's Ittock is around 13g if that's what he's using for Grados. Maybe we can sort it out via PM or email. That TLZ I tried had maybe the sweetest vocals I ever heard on a stereo.

neo

The alphason should be fine......as i run Linn arms as well, although the Ittok is a bit heavier than my Akito........I assume you have loading plugs...as The MCZ stylus is mounted back into the high out (3.5mv) 8MZ body. Still trying to decipher about that fata$$ bass you experienced with the TLZ.   BaMorin@AOL.com

Marc

neobop

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Re: The things you can make out of paper......
« Reply #45 on: 25 Dec 2010, 02:14 pm »
Is the MCZ body a low or med out? It doesn't really matter. If I use the AHT I can set the gain or resistance for just about anything. But it would be a good idea to give me a ballpark. I might have to order some resistors. I could also get some other values to make plugs for a conventional MM stage and compare results. Even if the output is around 1mV, it will work with the Revelation 2. That pre has 20dB of gain in the line stage which is usually too much. I'll email you.

neo

Letitroll98

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Re: The things you can make out of paper......
« Reply #46 on: 25 Dec 2010, 02:35 pm »
Not all protractors will work for all turntables with tonearm pre-mounted. Geodisc will not work on Pro-ject 6.1, it's tonearm was mounted based on other curve that the Geodisc was made for. The best thing to do is to use the protractor that came with the turntable.

Would you be so kind as to explain this statement?  Not to start an argument or anything, but I'm at a loss as to how this could be, perhaps I'm missing something.

Delta Wave

Re: The things you can make out of paper......
« Reply #47 on: 25 Dec 2010, 02:45 pm »
I have a Geodisc and it really doesn't give me good results. I only use it to get it close, I always get tracking problems with the innermost grooves.

BaMorin

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Re: The things you can make out of paper......
« Reply #48 on: 25 Dec 2010, 02:55 pm »
Is the MCZ body a low or med out? It doesn't really matter. If I use the AHT I can set the gain or resistance for just about anything. But it would be a good idea to give me a ballpark. I might have to order some resistors. I could also get some other values to make plugs for a conventional MM stage and compare results. Even if the output is around 1mV, it will work with the Revelation 2. That pre has 20dB of gain in the line stage which is usually too much. I'll email you.

neo

The 3.5mv stated should work into any MM phono stage of 37db gain. The MCZ body only produces 1.5 mv, and a lot of MM phono stages don't work well below 3mv. input.  I'll send along a loading kit that should cover enough ground to find a sweet spot in your system.