Which is More Important: Amp or Preamp?

Mass. Wine Guy · « **on:** 21 Dec 2010, 03:57 am »

When upgrading a system and you can't afford to upgrade everything in it, is the preamp or power amp more influential in how the system sounds? This assumes that you have a pretty decent amp to begin with.

Thank you.

JerryM · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 04:15 am »

Quote from: Mass. Wine Guy on 21 Dec 2010, 03:57 am

This assumes that you have a pretty decent amp to begin with.

Preamp, definitely.

Have fun,
Jerry

Danberg · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 04:55 am »

I have made several changes to my system over the years and without question the pre-amp has ALWAYS made the largest audible difference.

wilsynet · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 05:21 am »

I use a passive, the Lightspeed Attenuator. If your amp has appropriate sensitivity and input impedance, and your source has appropriate output voltage and output impedance, then you can have a very good and effective preamplifier / passive for very few dollars.

Not everyone feels this way, but to my ears the Lightspeed Attenuator in my system is better than many active preamps costing many more dollars.

Mass. Wine Guy · « **Reply #4 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 06:42 am »

Any opinions on the Morrison E.L.A.D. preamp? That's what I have now and it seems pretty good. Absolutely silent and neutral, but I have not used many other preamps to have comparisons. Hence, I'm considering a change.

Elizabeth · « **Reply #5 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 08:40 am »

I have owned many preamps:
In the past 30 years:
Hafler DH110 I built from kit with phono. Very nice, loved it, BUT traded it in for:
Sony (first digital processor pre) ??ES1000 , suckered by bells and whistles.. chunk of trash.. biggest mistake of my audio life.. Got rid of it to buy:
Used Counterpoint 2000 which i dearly loved and it broke several times so sold it after relegating it to doorstop status: (wish I had kept it!!! and had it fixed properly)
New Adcom 750, the 'audiophile one (with a blue board, mine was actually green board early, early production, but what the H.) Kept that for a long time. Then
Found a cheap used Audio Research SP-10.. was OK, but tried another used SP-15 and liked it MUCH better, so sold the SP-10.. then
Bought a Bryston BP-26 last Spring.
Then tried a cheap tube buffer, OK with DAC, so i splurged for a used VAC Standard to use just as a tube buffer (glorified, but still just a buffer)
SO: currently I am using the Bryston, with the BP 1.5 phono. and using the Audio Research SP-15 just as a second (tubed) phono, into the Bryston BP-26, and the VAC Standard as a tube buffer between the DAC and Bryston.
For amps I have had Carver, Forte' 4a and now Bryston 4B-SST2.
So having tried more preamps than amps, I would say a preamp has more effect on sound quality than an amp (in general) thought this DOES NOT APPLY if comparing tubes amps with SS ones.
I am sticking to this story.
The Hafler was musical, as my first 'real audiophile' preamp. the Sony was NOT musical. I stopped listening to music, but took a long time to realize why!!!
The Counterpoint was musical, but broke a lot, I loved the Counterpoint.
The Adcom was good. reliable.
The SP-10 was OK, needed great tubes to shine, Mine had cheap, crummy tubes. and had a lot of 'tube noise' so it never really had a chance to shine, and I was not about to spend a $1,000 for superlative tubes.
The Sp-15 is nice, better than the Adcom. But the Bryston BP-26 is better than the SP-15
Notice I started leaving out 'musical' Well I think it takes tubes to have that musical sound, not accurate, but pleasing.
The VAC is not as clean as the SP-15, which is exactly what I want in a tube buffer, to 'hide' the digital HF crap. without diminishing the music.
I would go for a 40th Ann. Audio Research if I had buckets of money, or a top of the line Conrad Johnson. Or even the Ref 5 ARC.. Tube preamp heaven.
I bought the Bryston to last me the rest of my life... (I just retired.)
I would also say a preamp 'adds' to the sound, where an amp only subtracts from the sound if it is not so good.IMO.
Also I like clarity more than any other quality in my stereo. So the Bryston gives me that the best I have found in a midpriced preamp.
If I HAD $12 to $20K to blow, I would be looking at the tube preamps i mentioned.

opnly bafld · « **Reply #6 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 12:33 pm »

Quote from: Mass. Wine Guy on 21 Dec 2010, 06:42 am

Any opinions on the Morrison E.L.A.D. preamp? That's what I have now and it seems pretty good. Absolutely silent and neutral, but I have not used many other preamps to have comparisons. Hence, I'm considering a change.

A friend that has heard a lot of different preamps (and setups) still has his Morrison.

Lin

dangerbird · « **Reply #7 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 12:49 pm »

Not to derail,but what is your source?

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #8 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 12:58 pm »

A preamp with an overbuilt power supply.

JLM · « **Reply #9 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 01:06 pm »

In terms of absolutes you can get by without a pre-amp (if you don't do vinyl, have only a single source, and don't use tone controls or subwoofers), so I'd say the power amp is more important (unless you only use headphones). Several CDPs and DACs include volume controls. Then there are the in-line attenuators for the purists (that's what I use).

It really depends where you are on the audio quality scale and how well all your components synergize. Like wilsynet stated, passive (or no pre-amp - the ultimate passive) can sound very good but all the stars must be in alignment.

Mass. Wine Guy · « **Reply #10 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 03:31 pm »

Quote from: dangerbird on 21 Dec 2010, 12:49 pm

Not to derail,but what is your source?

An Arcam CD-72 CD player.

batmanslc2 · « **Reply #11 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 04:05 pm »

I have found the pre-amp makes a bigger difference, I've cycled through 4-5 amps and 5-6 pre and the pre has always made more diff in Sound quality ymmv!

AmpDesigner333 · « **Reply #12 on:** 21 Dec 2010, 04:08 pm »

Quote from: JLM on 21 Dec 2010, 01:06 pm

In terms of absolutes you can get by without a pre-amp (if you don't do vinyl, have only a single source, and don't use tone controls or subwoofers), so I'd say the power amp is more important (unless you only use headphones). Several CDPs and DACs include volume controls. Then there are the in-line attenuators for the purists (that's what I use).

It really depends where you are on the audio quality scale and how well all your components synergize. Like wilsynet stated, passive (or no pre-amp - the ultimate passive) can sound very good but all the stars must be in alignment.

Good post. As far as going preamp-less, I recommend a high quality D/A (like Benchmark or Lavry) with balanced outputs and a passive volume control!

Rclark · « **Reply #13 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 01:47 am »

Quote from: Elizabeth on 21 Dec 2010, 08:40 am

I have owned many preamps:
In the past 30 years:
Hafler DH110 I built from kit with phono. Very nice, loved it, BUT traded it in for:
Sony (first digital processor pre) ??ES1000 , suckered by bells and whistles.. chunk of trash.. biggest mistake of my audio life.. Got rid of it to buy:
Used Counterpoint 2000 which i dearly loved and it broke several times so sold it after relegating it to doorstop status: (wish I had kept it!!! and had it fixed properly)
New Adcom 750, the 'audiophile one (with a blue board, mine was actually green board early, early production, but what the H.) Kept that for a long time. Then
Found a cheap used Audio Research SP-10.. was OK, but tried another used SP-15 and liked it MUCH better, so sold the SP-10.. then
Bought a Bryston BP-26 last Spring.
Then tried a cheap tube buffer, OK with DAC, so i splurged for a used VAC Standard to use just as a tube buffer (glorified, but still just a buffer)
SO: currently I am using the Bryston, with the BP 1.5 phono. and using the Audio Research SP-15 just as a second (tubed) phono, into the Bryston BP-26, and the VAC Standard as a tube buffer between the DAC and Bryston.
For amps I have had Carver, Forte' 4a and now Bryston 4B-SST2.
So having tried more preamps than amps, I would say a preamp has more effect on sound quality than an amp (in general) thought this DOES NOT APPLY if comparing tubes amps with SS ones.
I am sticking to this story.
The Hafler was musical, as my first 'real audiophile' preamp. the Sony was NOT musical. I stopped listening to music, but took a long time to realize why!!!
The Counterpoint was musical, but broke a lot, I loved the Counterpoint.
The Adcom was good. reliable.
The SP-10 was OK, needed great tubes to shine, Mine had cheap, crummy tubes. and had a lot of 'tube noise' so it never really had a chance to shine, and I was not about to spend a $1,000 for superlative tubes.
The Sp-15 is nice, better than the Adcom. But the Bryston BP-26 is better than the SP-15
Notice I started leaving out 'musical' Well I think it takes tubes to have that musical sound, not accurate, but pleasing.
The VAC is not as clean as the SP-15, which is exactly what I want in a tube buffer, to 'hide' the digital HF crap. without diminishing the music.
I would go for a 40th Ann. Audio Research if I had buckets of money, or a top of the line Conrad Johnson. Or even the Ref 5 ARC.. Tube preamp heaven.
I bought the Bryston to last me the rest of my life... (I just retired.)
I would also say a preamp 'adds' to the sound, where an amp only subtracts from the sound if it is not so good.IMO.
Also I like clarity more than any other quality in my stereo. So the Bryston gives me that the best I have found in a midpriced preamp.
If I HAD $12 to $20K to blow, I would be looking at the tube preamps i mentioned.

I love your posts!

mjosef · « **Reply #14 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 02:33 am »

In my short audio experience, the preamp brings more to the table than the amp.
I have been using the same amps for many years, but have gone through over 6 preamps in the last 6-7 years.
As I moved up the preamp's quality (and price) scale, my amps surprised me with just how better they sounded being feed a better and better quality signal.
So for me the preamp is more important.

roscoeiii · « **Reply #15 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 03:08 am »

Surprised it hasn't been mentioned here yet. While a preamp can certainly influence a system's sound to a great degree, the importance of getting a good match between you power amp and your speakers is huge. Be sure to look into what your speakers need from an amp to make sure you get an amp that is the best match.

Synergy is key.

stereocilia · « **Reply #16 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 03:36 am »

I think the amp is more important. I don't have scientific proof, but look at the distortion and noise specifications for each one with the same price. The preamp is better usually, right? ( i know, I know, specs don't equal sound, but I present that as evidence.)

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #17 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 03:44 am »

I have a Counterpoint SA5 pre that is not working. The outboard tube power supply blew its tube. Plus I can see the main board arc with its frame in the dark. Just needs a little solder, probably. I called Michael Elliot and he wanted six hundred dollars up front to look at it. Bout that time a local dealer friend called and said a customer was on his way in to trade his ARC LS7 for an SP15. So, I bought it for $700.00 and coupled it to a phono pre I had. This was a few years ago in case you can't tell. I paid retail for the Counterpoint, however. What the hey, think I'll see if I can find Mr. Elliot after all and give the repair of my SA5 some more thought. I, too, have had more preamps than amps. If someone wanted to interject tube amplification into their system, I would suggest it be the preamp. Less money, too, I believe.

richidoo · « **Reply #18 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 04:06 am »

The amp / speaker combination is the most important except for the speaker / room combination. I live happily without the distortion of a preamp. But they add convenience and people like the sonic colors they bring. I don't like the colors. The amp colors it enough already but is necessary.

jimdgoulding · « **Reply #19 on:** 21 Apr 2011, 04:17 am »

Quote from: richidoo on 21 Apr 2011, 04:06 am

The amp / speaker combination is the most important except for the speaker / room combination. I live happily without the distortion of a preamp. But they add convenience and people like the sonic colors they bring. I don't like the colors. The amp colors it enough already but is necessary.

Must agree based on a Sony CDP I had in the late 80's that would drive my active speaks directly.