[Quiet Earth]

  Passives are good but miss out on the soul.

A transformer volume control can bridge the gap between transparency and soul if you have plenty of gain in the power amp and reasonably efficient speakers.

 But now we're back to building a specific system, and not just buying one component at time.

[Quiet Earth]

I am not a big fan of passives.  I read from somewhere that an active preamp is not just adding gain to the input signal as it passes to the amp.  What it's really doing is rebuilding the output from it's own PS mirroring the input amplitude -- thus the importance on the power supply.  A good active preamp will "improve" the output signal by eliminating the insertion and what not loss you get in the passives.  This buffering really "adds" body to the music compared to passives.  IMHO.

You know what? Even though I use a passive TVC, I agree with you. 

But just like Mass. Wine Guy, it is an issue of cost for me. Some day when I can afford a world class pre amp I will replace my beloved TVC.

OK, no more coffee for me today.  Over and out!

[doug s.]

You know what? Even though I use a passive TVC, I agree with you. 

But just like Mass. Wine Guy, it is an issue of cost for me. Some day when I can afford a world class pre amp I will replace my beloved TVC.

OK, no more coffee for me today.  Over and out!

either of these should do the trick for you, w/o a huge financial penalty. 

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1308974851&/Melos-SHA-1-

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1307449643&/Melos-sha-gold-reference---gor

at least until you can find an ma333r in good shape...   

that (modded) melos ma333r, (the dual-mono p/s in the same size chassis is not seen, on the shelf below the cd/buffer/ps), has been in my system for for almost 15 years now, and it ain't going anywhere any time soon...

doug s.

[Steve]

A general reply. What is that analog gainstage in a CD player (after the DAC chip) that has a gain of two (6db). And what about that extra gain in the amplifier over a basic amplifier?   

Does a preamplifier gainstage have to be in a chassis named
"preamplifier"? 

Cheers.

[HT cOz]

Good point steve!  I think that is why so much DAC focus has been on the analogue output of DACs.

[rockadanny]

My monoblock amps retailed for $3400 and my preamp retailed for $675. And I think they are on par with one another. So there you have it. I cannot say which is more important to upgrade, but if finances are an issue, you can do what I did if you wish - spend far less on a preamp and get as good a quality, more expensive amp.

[stereocilia]

I'm surprised there aren't more dacs with remote volume controls on the market.  Benchmark, Nuforce, Wyred4Sound, Emotiva...who else?

[srb]

Antelope Audio Zodiac Gold
 
 

[Steve]

Good point steve!  I think that is why so much DAC focus has been on the analogue output of DACs.

I am glad to see that HT, at least they are attempting to upgrade. But how can they figure adding a world class pre/gainstage in such a limited size chassis? And for a gain of only two (6db). One can  bypass that stage with almost any world class pre/gainstage, be it  tube or SS and cover the 6db loss. A buffer/gainstage is just not needed except in certain designs. More stages means more musical degradation.

Cheers.

 

[Quiet Earth]

What is that analog gainstage after the DAC chip ?

I/V transformer 

....followed by 12AU7 (twice) and handed off via 33:1 step down transformer.  That's Mojo baby


Seriously though, your point is well taken. There are amplifiers throughout the entire audio chain. They are all important. Taken out of context they cannot really be judged alone.  For the starting block, I think the best thing a newbie can do is stay focused on the needs of the speaker when he thinks about an amplifier.  Consider them a working unit.  Then think about the sensitivity of the amplifier/speaker unit when pondering the preamplifier. That will probably give you the best bang for your buck.

[Steve]

I/V transformer 

....followed by 12AU7 (twice) and handed off via 33:1 step down transformer.  That's Mojo baby


Seriously though, your point is well taken. There are amplifiers throughout the entire audio chain. They are all important. Taken out of context they cannot really be judged alone.

[/quote]

First, I think it is important for everyone to learn sound principles early so one can make a more informed and accurate choices. Afterall, the more grounded in the fundamentals, the less likely they will be fooled/conned; the more likely they will be able to spot inaccurate and misleading  information/informercials.
 
I believe they can be judged alone. I have already given scientific pros and cons in my previous posts that have been addressed for 60 years or more. (Many from RCA Radiotron Designers Handbook, 26 engineers, 1952). 

For the starting block, I think the best thing a newbie can do is stay focused on the needs of the speaker when he thinks about an amplifier.  Consider them a working unit.  Then think about the sensitivity of the amplifier/speaker unit when pondering the preamplifier. That will probably give you the best bang for your buck.

Your point is taken. But I think it is important for one to learn basic sound principles early so one can make a more informed and accurate choice themselves, now and in the future.

With the information I presented, they can choose either the integrated route, or separate routes and know the basic pros and cons of each.

See above.

Cheers.   

[Steve]

I have been thinking and it seems many have the idea that one can just take one average/good sounding design and have "synergy" by mating it to another average/good sounding "complimentary" design. Of course the quesiton is how good is the "synergy"??

The poorer the designs are, the less quality "synergy" one is capable of obtaining. There are just too many variables to match. On the contrary, the better the designs, the better the chance of great "synergy".

For optimum "synergy" each component needs to be as close to optimum/accurate as possible, as rarely does a design present just one flaw. It is almost always multiple flaws.

Thus two average/good components will present different multiple flaws which are nearly impossible to compliment, and will not have great "synergy". The question is how does one express/post how good the synergy is along the subjective synergy line.

As far as which is more important, the preamplifier handles smaller signals, which makes each detail vastly important. The amplifier has to match to (usually) reactive speakers. They are both important, but I give the nod to the preamplifier because the smallest matters are relevant in the design/sound.

Cheers.

ps. By definition an integrated amplifier has a preamplifier gainstage incorporated in the design/chassis. Check the magazines going back decades.