[mix4fix]

I'm window shopping for a new turntable; and, I need some ideas.

The VPI is at the top of the list; I also like the look of the Marantz Reference one.

Any others???

Along those same lines, I need a better phono pre-amp; suggestions?

[etcarroll]

I need a new pre as well, be interested to see the responses.

To the OP, does the 2K budget cover both the tt and pre?

[mix4fix]

$2500 or less for both...

[Ericus Rex]

I've spent some time with the Marantz table and must say that compared to a VPI Scout it feels like a toy.  Considering it comes standard with an $800 cartridge it is definitely a 'best buy' but these days you can get a Scout with arm and Dynavector cartridge for around $1,200 used.  I personally think the Music Hall MMF-5.1 SE is a better table than the Marantz but it comes with a lesser cartridge (more sensible match IMO to the table).

Also check out the new Clearaudio Concept ($1,400 w/o cart, $1,500 w/ MM).  It looks like a very good table.

As for phono stages the Ray Samuels Nighthawk is a very good performer at $800.  Very versatile too!  There are 15 pages of comments on the Nighthawk here at AC.  Check them out!

[TheChairGuy]

Well-Tempered Simplex is pretty loaded - no arm bearing (silicone fluid bath), 10.5" arm (filled with sand), polyester drive 'belt' (less speed variation than stretchy rubber), well thought thru outboard speed controller.....under USD$2500.00 last I checked.

One location installation of the cartridge...no fore and aft adjustments needs (at 10.5", it tracks so well that screwing around with this parameter won't result in better tracking results).  You need only to know if the body is sitting flat to the record surface and adjust the tracking force to the correct one for your cartridge.

Dynavector is distributing it....but with a silicone fluid bath, the entire Grado line would probably sing on that deck

It's so simple, and made in China, it should be cheaper, however.  Dynavector is surely practicing 'yeild' management of profits on this one.

Anyhow, that would be my direction with $2500.00 to spend on a table these days.

btw, I have the VPI Classic and it's very, very good (but over budge for you unless you find a used one)

John

[rcag_ils]

VPI Classic would be my first choice if I would buy new. Avoid anything that look all acrylic, platter, plinth, feet, because they are easy to make, hence reason for your Marantz feels like a toy.

"Made in China" is no longer means cheap, Quad speakers are made in China, but still cost several thousands, not cheap. If you find something that's made in China and cheap, that means the quality is cheaper than the cost, you'd regret not to pay more.

Or like me, buy good used ones.

[TheChairGuy]

"Made in China" is no longer means cheap, Quad speakers are made in China, but still cost several thousands, not cheap. If you find something that's made in China and cheap, that means the quality is cheaper than the cost, you'd regret not to pay more.

Labor cost in US is around $20.00 per hour...$160.00 per day and $800 a week.  That's pretty much minimal....it tends to be higher, not lower than this.

In China, it's $8 a day still or about $2500.00 per year  

So, if a table takes 2 man days to build...it's $16 in labor in China and $320 in the US.  Freight from China to the US in no way makes up for that difference.

I've been buying products (increasingly quality) made in China for 15 years now and import over 1 million units yearly and rising.  I truly know as I live it everyday.

The Well Tempered Simplex is making Well-Tempered and Dynavector a fair wince of cash sold on each one (along with dealers) with $16 in Chinese labor involved and a price that reaches about $2400.00 in the US.

Whereas the VPI Classic is US made and costs only $300 more (coincidentally the difference in two average days labor for the two products).

I don't know the sonic qualities of either side-by-side.....but, the VPI Classic (which I own) strikes me as high value for all it offers and with US labor content involved. However, its over budget for the OP

mix4fix...the same company in China (Opera) that makes the Well Tempered Simplex also makes conventional tables....and Grant Fidelity carries them at reasonable costing:

http://grantfidelity.com/site/catalog/86/turntablestonearms_and_vinyl_accessories

John

[TONEPUB]

Second the notion on the Clearaudio Concept or the new Consonance from Grant Fidelity.  Both great tables for $1400.  Got both, love both.

[SteveFord]

Is the Simplex that much?  I don't see anything about prices on that model.
As a Well Tempered lover I wish that they would have found a way to have them produced domestically.

[Gopher]

I'm the owner of a Well Tempered Reference who hasn't heard the newer WT offerings, but based upon what I have read I would check out a used Amadeus (I think I've seen two used so far) or a new Simplex. 

As for phono preamplifiers, I would buy a Jasmine Audio LP2.0SE.  http://www.jasmineaudio.net/lp2SE.html

Its a giant killer flying under the radar and can be purchased very cheaply, directly from China.  Deeply satisfying piece.   

[rcag_ils]

So, if a table takes 2 man days to build...it's $16 in labor in China and $320 in the US.  Freight from China to the US in no way makes up for that difference.

I've been buying products (increasingly quality) made in China for 15 years now and import over 1 million units yearly and rising.  I truly know as I live it everyday.

The Well Tempered Simplex is making Well-Tempered and Dynavector a fair wince of cash sold on each one (along with dealers) with $16 in Chinese labor involved and a price that reaches about $2400.00 in the US.

As you can see, the Chinese build them cheap, but they don't sell them to you cheap, not in hifi, they have to charge a compatitive price to keep the market going. In hifi, the Chinese made hardware parts, like gold jacks are not the same as U.S. or European made, however, the electronic parts are all made in the Orient. After the Chinese put a product together with cheap parts and cheap labor, then they charge a market price, therefore, they are making tons of money. I don't support this kind of practice if I can help it, so for hifi, I don't buy Chinese made stuff. Shoes, I have no choice, 99.9% of the shoes are made in China, even the Red Wing shoes.

[Ericus Rex]

I was talking to a guy who had a small manufacturing plant in China (not audio equipment).  He told me he paid his workers $50 month and that was considered a very good wage in that area!  Granted, $50 would get you lots of Chinese money and this was back in '97 or so.  But the figure of $2,500 month is probably way off for some parts of China.

What I don't understand though is why prices of some products stay the same after a company moves production to China (or wherever)       Sorry to be off topic, but HEY!, I responded above to OP.   

[TheChairGuy]

I was talking to a guy who had a small manufacturing plant in China (not audio equipment).  He told me he paid his workers $50 month and that was considered a very good wage in that area!  Granted, $50 would get you lots of Chinese money and this was back in '97 or so.  But the figure of $2,500 month is probably way off for some parts of China.

What I don't understand though is why prices of some products stay the same after a company moves production to China (or wherever)       Sorry to be off topic, but HEY!, I responded above to OP.

'97 was a very long time ago.....that wage is no longer in China (except, perhaps, in the far off western provinces).  I think the minimum wage in Guangdong Province (that's the one next to Hong Kong in China), the one I'm most familiar with, works out to almost $2500.00 yearly now. Things are pricier in China today than 13 years ago....but wage gains have exceeded that handily in that timeframe.

Where in '97 there was nothing but bicycles - there are motorcycles and cars now (perhaps you read that the Chinese market surpassed the US in annual cars sold now...by a couple million vehicles yearly)

The reason for prices largely staying the same is probably equal parts survival and opportunism. 

A company would presumably stay in their home country and continue making products...if they made a profit.  So, most that have moved had or did not....so when they do, they take the opportunity to make some profit to make up for the losses incurred.

There's nothing wrong with that - you can still vote with your wallet and choose from among dozens of countries and makes of turntables (or phono amps, or cartridges, etc) in the world today  

John

[rcag_ils]

In hifi, the price for the U.S., British designed/made in China gear are still up there, not much of a decrease in price, same as Well-Tempered, a rip-off in my opinion.

The Chinese designed and manufactured hifi gear (like the ming-da stuff) are little cheaper than the U.S. and Euro designed depending on what you compare with.

The Marshall guitar amps, the ones made in Vietnam are three times less than the ones that are made in England, workmanship are about the same, the made in England models have different features.

[Sonny]

I need a new pre as well, be interested to see the responses.

To the OP, does the 2K budget cover both the tt and pre?

gene, what phono pre are you using now and what loading do you need?  I have my Curcio loaded at 100 ohms for my shelter 901.  I can let you borrow and try it if you'd like...you would have to pay for shipping, both ways though.

let me know.
T

[Berndt]

Another shameless plug for vintage empires.
Leaves more room for a good arm. If you have hopes of continuing upscale I would consider building a an analog system with room to grow.

[Wayner]

You may want to reconsider your budjet, as VPI just came out with the Classic 3

 

Wayner

[mix4fix]

Please mind that the turntable/cartridge/pre-amp will be $2k-$2.5K; I don't have the budget for a $6K turntable by itself.

There are two other Clearaudio turntables that are close to the Concept's price; how do those compare?

[rcag_ils]

I am also puzzled by how did a $6k turntable got on the under $2k turntable thread  . Maybe poor math may have something to do with it.

[toxteth ogrady]

Build a well sorted Lenco and you can leave that $6,000 Vpi to collect dust. You'll come in under $2000 including tonearm and cartridge and you'll have $500 to spend on your phono pre. The Jasmine phono pre mentioned earlier really is a phenomenal performer, and not just for the money.

A rough breakdown of costs:

Jasmine Phono - $525
Lenco - $300/$400
Jelco 12" arm & cable - $700
Denon dl103/103r - $150/$250
BB Plywood for plinth - $75/$150

Here's a link to someone's first Lenco build, a pretty bog standard one by the way...look at what he's comparing it to. http://www.lencoheaven.net/forum/index.php?topic=4135.msg65709#msg65709