[Marco Prozzo]

I just have to share my enthusiasm over yet another remarkable achievement by Modwright, in the form of a collaboration between Dan and Alex Dondysh.  I own the prototype preamp/DAC mentioned in this thread. I'd become a longtime fan of my Modwright Transporter and have it maxxed with Bybee's and the usual suspects occupying the tube sockets (EML + TSR or Black Treasures). It has been the front end in my main system for about four or five years I believe.  It is difficult to conceive of anything sounding much better than that front end, short of analog.  Let me say again - I'm a huge fan of the MWTP, but when I swapped out to this hybrid DAC/Preamp it was immediately apparent that there was a new king (and those are mighty big royal boots to fill).  My MWTP is still being thoroughly enjoyed in my office system, but the short story (without boring all of you with a steady verse of syrupy audiophile expletives) is that this collaboration is a real triumph and worthy of encouraging further DAC-centric collaborations.  I knew when there was a DAC good enough for Dan to put his name on, that it would be a heavyweight contender, and boy was I right.  Alex has an amazing product and Dan was brilliant to harness the opportunity to collaborate.  I do hope they can work out putting some things into production - if they do, they will be something to write home about.  I'd encourage you folks who are itchin' for a Modwright DAC to let Dan know what you're after.  I know he's juggling all kinds of options and greatly values feedback.  Input from those who are interested may help hone the directions he takes his efforts in.  Anyway, just wanted to offer up my great appreciation; Dan, you just seem to keep knocking them out of the ballpark.  Congrats too on the great RMAF write up in Positive Feedback! Five thumbs up

Disclaimers:

The "Young Genius" is  a client of mine. 

I don't have five thumbs, but my wife has two to add to my two, and my dog loves to listen to music and he has dew claws, so I'm counting the two dew claws as one thumb. 

I'm on a horse.

 

[ted_b]

Since Dan thinks Alex's DAC architecture could be placed into a 36.5 DM (due to the empty power supply side of the DM's line stage chassis) I'd LOVE to know about a couple things (assuming this is not just the 3D DAC18, which is SPDIF redbook only):
1) what are the sample rates available to this DAC?  Is it full hirez to 24/192, or just 16/44?  24/96?  Does it switch with incoming signal?
2) what are the inputs?  AES/SPDIF/USB, etc?
3) what are the aspects of this DACs sound that make it a step above the MWTP?  I ask cuz I found that although the MWTP presents a glorious and high-value intro to computer audio, I got itching for greater than 24/96 and found it took quite a bit of demoing to find anything that would better the MWTP without spending 3X+. 

[golfugh]

Hopefully stand-alone with full hi-rez capability.

[dminches]

At this point 24/96 has to be the minimum resolution given that recordings of that type are becoming more and more available. I could see this DAC occupying the empty space in my new LS-100.

[ted_b]

Thanks all.    As creator and moderator of the HiRez Music Circle I thought it might be too self-serving to state that myself (i.e DAC must be 24/192 or greater   )

[Marco Prozzo]

Since Dan thinks Alex's DAC architecture could be placed into a 36.5 DM (due to the empty power supply side of the DM's line stage chassis) I'd LOVE to know about a couple things (assuming this is not just the 3D DAC18, which is SPDIF redbook only):
1) what are the sample rates available to this DAC?  Is it full hirez to 24/192, or just 16/44?  24/96?  Does it switch with incoming signal?
2) what are the inputs?  AES/SPDIF/USB, etc?
3) what are the aspects of this DACs sound that make it a step above the MWTP?  I ask cuz I found that although the MWTP presents a glorious and high-value intro to computer audio, I got itching for greater than 24/96 and found it took quite a bit of demoing to find anything that would better the MWTP without spending 3X+.

I'll let Dan chime in on the tech-side but can answer as best I can.  Keep in mind this is a prototype and I don't know how it could change if Dan decides to produce it.  Here's what I can tell you:

It is a 24 bit DAC, but I'm not sure if it's 24/96 or 24/192. 

The input on this one is limited to SPDIF (RCA in this case I just sent it back for Dan to add a toggle switch and second RCA input).  I'm sure he could do BNC as well.  It also has a USB input rigged to the XLR output, which are entirely disabled because the output transformers are bypassed.  The USB is currently (in this prototype) limited to playing WAV files (I don't know why that limitation exists).  I have not tried the USB yet, but Dan claims it is very good.  More on that from Dan hopefully. 

There two areas where it excelled that immediately jumped out at me in direct comparison to my MWTP.  The first was a distinctly more coherent spacial sense (and you know the MWTP is no slouch here). The sense of depth and separation particularly improved.  The other was a greater sense of ease and naturalness to the sound which was especially apparent to me in vocals and in piano music (perhaps because those were the earliest things I sampled).  This was not to say it softened anything out, in fact I feel like I'm hearing even more deeply into the music....it just sounds more "right".  This became even more apparent on long-term listening where 'presence' was downright spooky at times in ways that I was not used to with very familiar cuts of music.  This particular aspect made the MWTP occur as slightly veiled - and I never thought I'd hear myself saying that about it because it really has never occurred to me that way. It still doesn't unless I hear the direct comparison.  I too think the MWTP is a truly outstanding digital front end, so it is difficult to find 'fault' because the faults are really not that - it's just that the differences imply that sort of criticism and I don't know how else to qualify them in direct comparison.  I still enjoy the heck out of my MWTP in my office system - it is an outstanding front end.  The DAC in my main system continues to startle me at times with it's presentation.  I'm only playing conventional AIFF, ALAC and WAV files from my library via a Squeezebox Touch (wirelessly).  I have not tried running anything but the Touch and the MWTP through it.    The gain is boosted from a conventional 36.5 DM to accommodate this particular DAC.  Alas, one note of not so good news - I know that to produce the unit in this conformation you would probably end up paying close to 3X  the price of the MWTP.  I don't know about a standalone version of the DAC or possible different implementations of it or others of Alex's design.  More on that from Dan (again).

Hope that helps.

Dan just had it back for a few days to add the additional RCA for me and tweak it a bit, so he and his tech got a chance to listen to it again.  I'm sure he can add his own impressions here.  I did not get into great specifics with him but know he likes it a whole lot.  I'm not sure what shines for him/ 

[Phil A]

Sounds really nice.  I am waiting for the tour of the LS100 to get a feel for how it sounds in my system and would consider the 36.5.  I been pestering a couple of people to see if I can get Dan a dealer here in the DC area too.

[mikel51]

and what I would like to know is what do you use as a front end to feed digital into the DAC that makes you like it better than the mwtp. are you using a computer or hard disc based digital front end?

I ask because all my forays into using a computer to feed a DAC was a definite down grade from using a CD transport to DAC.  The modwright TP is the only computer source that didn't sound worse that CD transport to DAC in my music system.

[Marco Prozzo]

and what I would like to know is what do you use as a front end to feed digital into the DAC that makes you like it better than the mwtp. are you using a computer or hard disc based digital front end?

I ask because all my forays into using a computer to feed a DAC was a definite down grade from using a CD transport to DAC.  The modwright TP is the only computer source that didn't sound worse that CD transport to DAC in my music system.

I'm using the an auxiliary HD in my computer via a Squeezebox Touch.  My experience is similar to yours in that the MWTP is certainly the best solution I've had in my system, up to now, in accomplishing this.  The Touch uses similar software and obviously is different hardware and is only being used as a streaming interface in this case. 

[Ern Dog]

Very exciting news!!!

How did it sound using the MWTP as the source instead of the Squeezebox Touch feeding the DAC?

[Marco Prozzo]

Very exciting news!!!

How did it sound using the MWTP as the source instead of the Squeezebox Touch feeding the DAC?

Good question - I did not try it.  I fed the analog output of the MWTP to the 36.5 as my comparison but did not try using it as a streaming source for the DAC. 

[Marco Prozzo]

The area of DACs (and OEM source equipment) seems like a tough market to me. The technology is moving very fast. What was SOTA a year ago is almost outdated today. This may be one area where pro audio actually has the advantage over audiophile manufacturers.

Source gear appears to be a slippery slope for a relatively small player like Modwright, IMO.

I certainly haven't heard them all, not even close, but the usual suspects in pro audio have left me cold for one reason or another.  But as far as bang for the buck, you do have a good point.  The thing that separates the chaff from the grain for me seems to come down to what sounds natural.  The few pro-audio DACs of the moment I've heard always have some sense of a biting edge to paint a crystalline picture without much heart (sorry, that's the best I can do at describing my gut reaction)...there's something just not...well, 'organic' about the way they've sounded to me.

As far as marketing, and weighing out the pros and cons..I've always been one to choose risk and following my heart, as opposed to looking at what others do and how they've succeeded or failed.  More of a "build it and they will come" kind of approach. Perhaps it'll be my downfall.  I can't speak for Dan, or course.  I guess the challenge is targeting the clients who are willing to pay to go that added distance (assuming they can hear and appreciate what that means).

 

[modwright]

First of all, thank you Marco for sharing your experiences with this 'one-off' piece!

It is the original 3D Audio DAC board, with USB 1.0, integrated into our LS 36.5 'DM', which has also been redesigned with a different and higher gain tube stage - more in common with LS 100 circuit, but still using 6H30 tubes.  This particular piece was rendered single-ended, but could be build fully balanced with full dual-differential circuitry, instead of output transformers.

USB 1.0 limits sample rate to 48Khz I believe.  May 96Khz, but I a not sure.  Obviously this is a critical design point for hi-rez files.  We found that SPDIF inputs sounded BETTER(!) than USB, so we have debated the value of even adding USB. I do understand however, that SPDIF IS limited to sample rates below the best hi-rez.

TVAD is RIGHT.  Tech is changing VERY fast and it is a slippery slope in many ways.  We have the ability to produce an EXCEPTIONAL hi-rez input, but the necessary capital investment for programming, etc., is NON-TRIVIAL.  Given the fast pace of digital, it is a tough decision as to how and WHEN to act, and insure that your will receive the ROI that you anticipate and aren't beaten to the punch by someone else!

Most significantly, Alex has a BRILLIANT DAC design and once the input formats are sorted, the sky IS the limit.  As it is, we could right now, produce a BRILLIANT DAC with SPDIF input that would blow you away.  Obviously the market wants USB or other hi-rez inputs and this is something that we are still working out.

What I really look for and value, is WHAT YOU GUYS WANT!  Specifically, inputs, formats, etc.  We will first offer digital inputs to our modified players and then a simpler integral DAC for our LS 100.  A DAC of the scale that Marco is describing WILL be a higher priced product and WILL perform beyond its price-point!

Thank you all!

Dan W.

[AB]

Just to be clear, Marco's 36.5 plus DAC does not use the standard 36.5 circuit, correct?

So I have to wonder, how much is this new circuit adding to the qualities he's hearing?

[Marco Prozzo]

Just to be clear, Marco's 36.5 plus DAC does not use the standard 36.5 circuit, correct?

So I have to wonder, how much is this new circuit adding to the qualities he's hearing?

errrr, ah, I lost you there. The MWTP I'm comparing it to was playing through the same circuit, just on another input. Am I missing something?

[AB]

It is the original 3D Audio DAC board, with USB 1.0, integrated into our LS 36.5 'DM', which has also been redesigned with a different and higher gain tube stage - more in common with LS 100 circuit, but still using 6H30 tubes. 

Marco,
The bold info is what I was referring to.

Maybe I am missing something? 

Wait...

I was thinking you had a MWTP and a 36.5 DM but now you have a new, upgraded 36.5 DM with a built in DAC.

But your 36.5 DM has always been upgraded/nonstandard. Right?

Or am I still confused?

[Marco Prozzo]

Marco,
The bold info is what I was referring to.

Maybe I am missing something? 

Yes, I understand - I'm saying the MWTP was playing through that same tube stage with the higher gain. I did have to adjust the volume, of course, but both sources were playing through the modified 36.5. I'm not claiming I've done strenuous scientific controlled comparisons. You do have a valid point in those comments I've made that pertain to long term listening and what I'm used to hearing from my system. But I was also surprised by the a/b comparison as well.

[mikel51]

I would wonder how it would sound feeding spdif from my Lynx sound card into the dac vs. using the spdif output of the squeezebox touch.  Definitely something I would want to try if you put it on tour.

[Marco Prozzo]

Wait...

I was thinking you had a MWTP and a 36.5 DM but now you have a new, upgraded 36.5 DM with a built in DAC.

But your 36.5 DM has always been upgraded/nonstandard. Right?

Or am I still confused?

I missed this last part, sorry.  Let me clarify this.  I can see where it's confusing - my apologies.

I have lived with a single-box 36.5 for many years.  It had all the power supply upgrades Dan's implemented over the years so was as close to a two-box that a single box could get.  It is essentially the same 36.5 single-box anyone can buy from Dan right now (without the newfangled pushbuttons) - an outstanding preamp to be sure.  The DAC I have now is a combination of a two-box 36.5 which has been very specifically modified, along with a DAC in the big open spot left from pulling the power supply out.  When I got it I did A/B comparisons by playing music through both the DAC in the 36.5DM vs my MWTP played through the same modified 36.5.  Certainly some improvements could have come from going from a one-box to a two box, and to a highly modified two-box to boot....BUT I was comparing the MWTP through the same signal path using the same preamp circuit.  Again - no scientific, controlled, double blind tests here...just my general impressions, which I thought were worth mentioning here because it wasn't something I had to listen hard for.  I did not bring in the single-box 36.5 again so that was out of the picture, entirely, as it were. 

Hope that clears things up.

[Philistine]

I'm in the market for a DAC as I move forwards with a 3rd system, consequently this question is currently occupying my mind also......

As raised by other contributors the DAC market is fast moving and new entrants are entering into the market driven by the continuing shift to computer based audio.  A number of these are from the pro-audio world and I see the playing field changing significantly.
   
In my search I'm looking for hi-rez future proof capability, with 24/96 as a minimum (not sure what the max should be).
Inputs - USB/SPDIF as a minimum (having a single input is too inflexible).
Price - I'm looking for a Hi-Rez standalone DAC at $2500 max, I think this is the psychological price point that most audiophiles are prepared to pay and you can get great performance at this price level.  $4000 plus DAC's have a significantly smaller market size.
Flexibility - there needs to be an indication that the DAC has the capability to be future proofed by any type of software/hardware upgrade.

I believe the flexibility of putting the DAC board in pre-existing MW products is a great idea, basically taking the Signal Path concept to a higher sonic level.  Having the ability to offer this would give MW a competitive advantage over the stand alone guys, in addition the shelf life of stand alone DAC's is very short and getting shorter.  A further advantage would be the option to retrofit the DAC into older MW products - helps with brand loyalty, repeat business.  A few years ago many of us invested $5k plus in MWTP's and associated tubes, a number of ex TP owners now claim they can beat the TP performance with DAC's costing less than $1k (used Tranquilities for example).  Also, we are intrigued by the Antelope Zodiac+ at $2500 and waiting for the Zodiac Gold projected performance but want it at the + price.  Having the option to integrate a MW DAC into an existing component would take MW out of this fight and help MW differentiate. 

So Dan, I'm looking for a DAC integration for as little cost as possible.  The stand alone DAC market is very fickle and, like I said, very fast moving - you need to have a competitive advantage to play in this arena. 

Trust this helps.