Coltrane???

tjandriesen · « **on:** 4 Mar 2004, 07:17 pm »

I've just started getting into some of the Jazz greats. I'm looking to pick up a few Coltrane CDs. What would everyone suggest. I do have SACD.

Mike D · « **Reply #1 on:** 4 Mar 2004, 08:32 pm »

My Favorite Things
Start with this. If you like it go for Giant Steps. If you Love it, go for Giant steps and "A Love Supreme."

Read the liner notes to A Love Supreme. It is a fascinating album only for hard core jazz fans and Coltrane fans. It is further 'out' than the first two records I mentioned.

mike

Mike D · « **Reply #2 on:** 4 Mar 2004, 08:33 pm »

My Favorite Things
Start with this. If you like it go for Giant Steps. If you Love it, go for Giant steps and "A Love Supreme."

Read the liner notes to A Love Supreme. It is a fascinating album only for hard core jazz fans and Coltrane fans. It is further 'out' than the first two records I mentioned.

mike

ghersh · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Mar 2004, 09:37 pm »

if you can afford it, get 'Classic Quartet' collection. This is where he really pushes the envelope (with McCoy Tyner and the rest of the bunch).

Also sessions at Village Vanguard, with Eric Dolphy joining his quartet.

IMHO, these two sets is the top.

Mike D · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Mar 2004, 09:58 pm »

But be careful...

If you go with the above recommendations, you will be listenning to some of the more, if not most, advanced jazz out there.

Have fun.

Mike D · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Mar 2004, 09:59 pm »

But be careful...

If you go with the above recommendations, you will be listenning to some of the more, if not most, advanced jazz out there.

Have fun.

MaxCast · « **Reply #6 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 12:09 pm »

What is advanced Jazz?

BTW, thanks for the recs. I don't have any Coltrane and was wondering this same question, thanks tj.

cjr888 · « **Reply #7 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 12:39 pm »

I would hit the Amazon or B&N site and just begin browsing tracks if you don't have a local music store that allows you to listen to CDs prior to purchase. Get a feel for what you're buying. I second the mentions above, IMO if you are new to Coltrane now, find the album or two that works for you -- one that is as accessible as possible, and slowly start checking out the other albums.

I don't remember what the first Coltrane album was that I bought, but I do remember not being ready for it at the time. Same with the second album. The album after that was one of the ones mentioned above, and it 'clicked' with me, and I listened to it endlessly. When I went back to the first two purchases, things came together, and enjoyed them vs. them seeming foreign to me.

I should have browsed tracks or asked people where to start as you have, because I blindly started buying CDs.....

One of my favorites though, that I suggest checking out is The Paris Concert.

mojoman · « **Reply #8 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 04:15 pm »

Good advice cjr88. I had a similiar experience with Coltrane in that the first album I bought was Interstellar Space. It was way to abstract for me so I didn't listen to 'Trane again for a long time.

I would say my favorite Coltrane albums are -

Blue Trane
My Favorite Things
Coltrane Plays the Blues
Giant Steps
A Love Supreme

Don't ignore the stuff he did with Miles either.

Tbadder1 · « **Reply #9 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 05:19 pm »

If you like ear-bleeding, emotional music get "Impressions." Makes all those arena rockers and hair bands and Finnish Death Metal bands sound like Norah Jones (likeable-yawn). That soprano sax is an acutal weapon. Get two rigs and put on Lou Reed's Metal Machine Music at the same time, turn them up full blast--you'll kill every cat within three miles!

PhilNYC · « **Reply #10 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 05:38 pm »

Coltrane's most famous recordings are My Favorite Things, Giant Steps, and A Love Supreme. If you want to become knowledgeable about Coltrane, you will need to get these three recordings anyways, so you may as well start there! Giant Steps is my favorite...

mcrespo71 · « **Reply #11 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 06:11 pm »

My favorite Coltrane LP is Blue Trane, though all the ones suggested are great!

Michael

ghersh · « **Reply #12 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 07:57 pm »

Quote from: MaxCast

What is advanced Jazz?

BTW, thanks for the recs. I don't have any Coltrane and was wondering this same question, thanks tj.

I have quite a few of Coltrane CDs. Incidently, my initial experience with Coltrane was with 'Kind of Blue'. Very little I knew about jazz, but I did recognize each player as 'having distinct personalities'. Coltrane on 'Kind of Blue' sounded for me very warm, involved, and intimate, like you walk with your close friend, and he tells you something very important. That feeling of complete involvement, complete immersion is what makes Coltrane so special for me.

I guess by 'advanced jazz' the original poster means staff happening in early 60s. Coltrane in his 'Classic Quartet' recordings gradually departs from bebob idioms, develops his own distinct style. But on the other hand, at the same time, lots of different styles spang up, all are departure from bebob. My faves are:

Ornette Coleman, 'free jazz'. 'Beauty is a rare thing' is the most definite collection. Absolute original, truly mindblowing, and very different from Coltrane.

Eric Dolphy - recordings like 'Out to Lunch, 'Last Date', and everything he recorded with Charles Mingus. Probably this is what eventually became known as 'Avangard'.

Charles Mingus, of course. Everything he's recorded at late 50s through 60s. In particular, his European tour (early 60s) - many recordings are available.

Thelonious Monk, and those who like to interpret his music (Steve Lacy, Misha Mengelberg ...). Probably also can be classified as Avangard. To get a taste of it, try to listen 'Regeneration' or 'Change of Seasons'. Not sure if both CDs are still available, I got them about 5 years ago.

and lots more, of course. Those folks were very adventure-minded, developed new styles, new idioms, it's a great staff but very different from the 50s, just the matter of getting used to. Remember that many musicians couldn't accept bebop either.

Mike D · « **Reply #13 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 11:03 pm »

Advanced Jazz to me is music that goes beyond the more common "rules" and "boundaries." For instance, in and Eb 7 chord, Louis Armstrong would play the following notes as a foundation: Eb, G, Bb, and maybe the Db to make it interesting. Coltrane is creditted with "extending" the chords to:
Eb, G, Bb, Db, F, Ab, C. Coltrane was also the first to base his note choice on a series of notes built OFF of any of the notes listed in the original chord. For instance, the Eb7 chord, he would build an extended chord off of the G, or the Bb, or the Db, or the F, or the Ab, or the C. There were zillions of other things that he did that were first in music. I hope this makes some sense. If it doesn't, you can at least hear that his melodies are more interesting to you. At the same time the melodies that Coltrane plays may lose the average listenner's interest. In the case of my wife, she hates Coltrane. It doesn't just lose her interest, she is confused by the intense emotions that are evoked from such complex music.

ooheadsoo · « **Reply #14 on:** 5 Mar 2004, 11:37 pm »

If you play Eb, G, Bb, Db, F, Ab, and C, is it still a Eb7 chord???

More like an Eb13 or a tone cluster, eh? Hehe, j/k

Mike D · « **Reply #15 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 04:01 am »

Yes. Much like a tone cluster, except arpeggiated. In these extended chords, every note in the scale would be included. So after a while, this became too basic and players started playing entire patterns based on notes that may have been less significant in the original key. This kind of harmony is termed "out" by music fans and musicians. Ornette Coleman and others actually became bored with the idea of even HAVING a tonality. The question was, "Why do we even need a key or a scale to base our music on?" The answer was quite "advanced."

Based on Ghersh's list above, I bet you and Ghersh would REALLY like an album that has Duke Ellington, Charlie Mingus, and Max Roach called 'Money Jungle'. Check it out. It is one of my desert island favorites. You can hear Ellington's wisdom and patience. When he plays the intro to one of the songs, it is as if he is saying, "gather 'round now.... I'm gonna tell you a story, but before I do, let me tell you a little about myself..." Max Roach is as much in his prime as he was on his album with Clifford Brown, "Clifford Brown and Max Roach at Basin Street." Except on this album, no rules of following a consistent beat pattern apply; he is playing his instrument as if each drum/cymbal were a note in a melodic line. Mingus is just an angry punk kid in the body of a mature, jail tested and battle hardened, cigar smokin', no-tooth brush havin' mobster. The way he attacks with mallace on Money Jungle demands attention. I recommend this album above and beyond any of the ones I mentioned earlier. This album is far more rhythmically advanced, but it does not require a cool wash cloth across the forhead to understand like Giant Steps.

Here is an interesting story about Giant Steps, Coltrane came into the studio and just handed the guys this piece that he wanted to record called "Giant Steps." The title implies the giant steps, or hoops, that the musicians must go through in order to solo over these chord changes. Listen to how the chord changes ever time you pat your foot.

The reason why the piano solo is so lame is because the tune is SO hard to play. This tune is commonly used as a test piece on Doctoral Recitals of students working towards their DMAs in Music Performance and/or Jazz Studies. Imagine what Wynton Kelly must have said to Coltrane about having to solo over a song that Coltrane had written and practiced for months.

ghersh · « **Reply #16 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 05:08 am »

Money Jungle - Yes, I have this album and like it a lot. Incidently, this is the only one album with either Ellington I got.

Regarding 'Advanced Jazz' - well, I didn't realize it is a technical term (if it is a valid technical term). In any case, since I've branched out from being a professional musician to being professional computer scientist, I don't have to worry about chord progressions (and their analysis) anymore

Getting the general sense of style is good enough for me.

grub · « **Reply #17 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 06:12 am »

Yeah man, if you're still pretty new to jazz, I'd recommend Miles Davis "Kind of Blue." Actually, I think EVERYONE should own this CD just because it is good on so many different levels. You'll get to hear lots of Coltrain, and also Canonball (biggest alto sound I've ever heard).

Try out Coletrains heavy stuff too, and if you dig that, check out the Dave Holland Quintet--I've been way into there stuff lately--beware--it's deep.
I hope you grow to love jazz as much as I do!
-->grub

Rob Babcock · « **Reply #18 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 06:15 am »

The latest Kind of Blue remaster sounds pretty amazing, sonically.

lonewolfny42 · « **Reply #19 on:** 6 Mar 2004, 03:22 pm »

For anyone that just wants a taste of Coltrane, you might try a Rhino cd release, R2 79778 , " The Very Best of John Coltrane ". Good selection of tunes and at a low list price. Enjoy !