[ZLS]

I reading comments about ....too loud....so....how loud is too loud ?

    Could you repeat that, I couldn't hear.  (Drum roll; rim shot!)

[satfrat]

I get your point on having a lifetime supply of music.  I just assumed that you were already at that point (or even past that stage) and that acquiring more music was your number one expense based on the WAYLTN thread.

Well while you actually do have that 1 thought correct, you'd have to admit this hobby is an obsesion.    My comments to Pez was just friendly joking, not meant to hyjack this thread or to be taken serious enough for comment.
 
Plus I want to read more thoughts on what was "Best of Show". 
 
Cheers,
Robin

[Tyson]

Tube driven?  I'd put up the Dynaudio room and the Acoustic Zen room.  For SS?  I liked the Modwright room, followed by the LessLoss room.

[groovybassist]

Pez:

I think you're underestimating my understanding of what they go through at a show.  I'm cognizant of how difficult the environment can be, but am still underwhelmed at the results.  You're entitled to sympathize with them to your hearts content - I just expected something slightly better than what I experienced.  In terms of finicky equipment, if it's that finicky, maybe it isn't appropriate for a show?

[jazdoc]

This year was my 4th straight RMAF and unlike prior years I wasn't auditioning specific products or trying to hit every room.  As always the best part of the show was chatting with fellow obsessives, putting faces to names on chat boards and spending time with friends.

I do think that many rooms play much too loudly.  I agree that the power is a problem but not much you can do about that.  For the most part, the better rooms were simple, uncluttered and (usually) acoustically treated.

In no specific order, my personal favorites on my limited sampling (I exclude rooms with equipment I own because of obvious bias):

Oswalds Mill:
Terrific sound at appropriate listening levels playing great variety of delightful music.  I've heard a similar OMA system in NYC and this had a slightly different presenation.  I returned several times to this oasis.

First Sound/Daedalus:
I own the Daedalus speakers, but for me the real treat was the First Sound preamp.  Stunning sound.  Emmanuel Go is a great presenter.

Walker Audio:
I much preferred the Walker room with the smaller TAD speakers when compared to the larger speaker models.  Had never heard a Walker and it lives up to it's reputation.  This room was the yin to the OMA yang.  Different, but both were excellent vinyl rooms.

Evolution Acoustics/Puget Sound Studio/Playback Designs:
I am familiar with the equipment but was not prepared for the RTR master tape of the upcoming reissue of Getz/Gilberto.  Absolutely jaw-dropping.

High Water Sound:
Always love Jeff Catalano's room.  A true music enthusiast.

[vinyl_guy]

I reading comments about ....too loud....so....how loud is too loud ?

I think it is a lot like Justice Hugo Black's comment about pornography: hard to define but "I know it when I see it." For me, my ears tell me when it is too loud.

[johnr733]

Just FYI Tyson is drunk.

I don't know. I think basing your opinion on the fact that there was a little boom and sizzle is pretty dismissive of the reality that is a trade show like this. Every single manufacturer is put in a shitty little room or a shitty big room with shitty hotel grid power that every other shitty room is running on and then must get a plethora of very complicated and sometimes finicky equipment to produce decent sound. I have seen many manufacturers scrambling well into Saturday evening to get things to sound better. To say that "If I was a mfg., I'd be working very hard to have my room sounding it's best from the get-go." is statement devoid of any knowledge that this IS what 99% of the manufacturers are doing all day, every day at the show. Do you really think that these guys fly in from all over the united states and, hell, the world for this show just to set up a bad sounding system to piss you off and let you down? Your expectations aren't too high, your understanding of what they go through to do this is too low.

I have to agree with groovybassist on this and here's why:  Lets start with the GR Research room.  The reason I actually went in there was to look at the audio points on the table in front of the room, as I was looking for something to put under a Blu-ray player.  As I looked at them I noticed the bright red cables on the table and became curious about them too . . . all during this there is piano music in the background and it keeps nagging at me that even not completely in the room, the sound was rather impressive.  So naturally I was curious as to what was playing.  My son and I were both amazed at the sound quality coming from those loudspeakers.  Then when we heard they were $2000 we both about fell over.  This room was set up for its environment and it showed.

A couple of years ago the same thing happened in the Sjofn room, and my son and I fell in love with the Guru loudspeakers.  These people were all facing the same conditions as all the other exhibitors, but proved its possible to consistently produce great music in even the harshest environment.  Bel Canto has been in different rooms and been successful every show I've been to.  MBL has changed rooms and for the most part has just looked pretty everytime.  The GR Research kits are more enjoyable to listen to than there $50K "all flash" speakers.

By the way i pointed out to the Naim people there was no pace or rhythm to their sound this year and their response was; "these speakers are really meant to be up close to the wall, that's when they sound their best".  Well then why isn't the room set up that way???  Pretty weak excuse.

Just how I see it.  Because the effort wasn't put into the setup, most rooms at the show were a dismal failure for me.  If I can't hear it at its best, why would i think it would sound better in my own home?  We're all searching for "musical" and I rarely heard that.

[Pez]

Other than the two of you it's pretty universally understood that none of the equipment at a trade show is ever going to sound "it's best" are you crazy? This is clearly the 1st show you've ever been to. Reread my post that You quoted. You have an Over inflated idea of how things should sound.

As for the Naim room, I cant speak to why they wouldn't have proper speaker setup, I doubt it would have mattered much because Naim sucks.

[TheChairGuy]

As Pez and I pointed out earlier (in one of these concurrent topics) - these audio shows are less than optimal listening experiences.

These things DON'T largely exist in your house - unless you live in a brothel

* Sharing of powerlines with hundreds of components grabbing at AC.  Sags, surges, noise spurs are bound to happen.  Artifacts from digital spew back into the lines, as well.  The best efforts at power 'conditioning' most often do more harm than good (yes, they 'clean', but they also strip something that makes many components sound screechy).  Surely, not all 'conditioners' do - but, too many, do.

* Somebody else's music playing

* One sweet spot in most rooms and, invariably, 4-6 other folks jockeying for it at any one time

* Doors opening continually, noise from other rooms pour in, sound (or at least vibrations) coming thru the walls, floors and ceilings leech in from other audio rooms

* Sub-optimal room sizing and little time to pre-prepare room for 'best' sound beyond a 1-2 days prior to the show

It's amazing to me that some of these rooms actually sounded great given the barriers. 

John

[Brian Cheney]

johnr733 and pez:

You will allow me, a 33 year veteran of over 40 audio shows (as an exhibitor), to comment on your comments. 

If the sound in a room is poor, and the sound in a similar room is good, it's perfectly OK to say so and blame the equipment.   It's true that room treatments help immensely, but the first time I did that (1980 in the Jockey Club), the fire marshall barged in and made me take down all my Sonex as a fire hazard!!  Still, I never do a show, consumer or trade, without damping.  And bass traps.  But, none of these help the dreaded floor-to-ceiling room mode,  71Hz in a room with 8ft ceilings.  This must be EQ'd out if your speakers have considerable bass output and extension.  Few exhibitors ever think about this.

At the recent California show, the first time in recent years I have been merely a spectator at such an event, I found most rooms sounded fair to poor.  Only two exhibits impressed me: some big Quad speakers with vinyl, and a small inexpensive two-way from an offshore manufacturer whose name I will not mention since I'm jealous (it was Grant Fidelity) which really threw an image and sounded natural. 

Here's how to have a successful Show demo:

1. Everything in the reproduction chain should be topnotch and synergistic with the product you're exhibiting.  A weak link and that's all you'll hear about, all Show long.

2. Don't forget AC conditioners/treatment.  I've used Bybee, Audience, and Audio Magic over the years and would not do without them.

3. EQ out that floor to ceiling room mode.  At January CES I was in a 26x32' ballroom with a 9ft ceiling and I cut 63Hz about 4dB.  The sound would have been crappy otherwise.

4. Kill early reflections/late arrivals with Sonex or similar, behind and beside the speaker.  Keep speakers well away from back and side walls--6ft is the minimum distance to reduce the Haas effect.  Bass traps will help with the lateral and front-to-back modes.

5. Have adjustment flexibility in your speakers, and set them up with program material you know to be well recorded and unprocessed.  If you tune to make your four favorite cuts sound good, chances are everything else will sound much less good.  My last two CES I had live musicians/instruments and tuned the system to emulate their sound.  Works every time!

6. Remember the sound will change with an audience present.  HF absorption happens naturally in large spaces and increases with a lot of bodies in small spaces.  You must be able to adjust for these changing conditions.

7. Be realistic about the sound you're getting.  If it's less than stellar, do something.  Don't break your arm patting yourself on the back, and check your ego at the front desk, you won't be needing it.

Shows are expensive and almost never pay for themselves.  Do them anyway for a much needed reality check.  Ask people what they think, and listen to the buzz in the hallways.  You're never as good as you think you are.

[jhm731]

[werd]

As Pez and I pointed out earlier (in one of these concurrent topics) - these audio shows are less than optimal listening experiences.

These things DON'T largely exist in your house - unless you live in a brothel

* Sharing of powerlines with hundreds of components grabbing at AC.  Sags, surges, noise spurs are bound to happen.  Artifacts from digital spew back into the lines, as well.  The best efforts at power 'conditioning' most often do more harm than good (yes, they 'clean', but they also strip something that makes many components sound screechy).  Surely, not all 'conditioners' do - but, too many, do.

* Somebody else's music playing

* One sweet spot in most rooms and, invariably, 4-6 other folks jockeying for it at any one time

* Doors opening continually, noise from other rooms pour in, sound (or at least vibrations) coming thru the walls, floors and ceilings leech in from other audio rooms

* Sub-optimal room sizing and little time to pre-prepare room for 'best' sound beyond a 1-2 days prior to the show

It's amazing to me that some of these rooms actually sounded great given the barriers. 

John

I am sure these systems would sound very different if they were the only ones playing and only one taking power off the grid like mentioned above.

[groovybassist]

Brian:  Thanks for sharing your perspective on how to do it right at shows.  Much appreciated.

Pez:  I wasn't looking for anything to sound it's "best" - decent would have been sufficient.  There are rooms that sounded decent, so it is possible, in spite of the obstacles.  The fact that some can do it and some can't bolsters my argument that some folks sat on their laurels vs. letting their sound speak for them.  By the way, I use a Naim CD5X and Flatcap2X as my front-end, and I'm with johnr733 - Naim's room (with the Ovator 400's) sounded atrocious.

[Pez]

So... Back to "Best of RMAF"

Best room overall for me goes to the MA Recordings room!



The reason is several fold. First the room sounded excellent. Absolutely the type of room that you just want to hang out in all day. Certainly not the tippy top best sound in the show, but when you are sitting there enjoying music you dont care.  Second is this:



Simply put each and every cd I purchased from this room is among the absolute best I have ever heard without comparison. Seriously Cheskey, XRCD, and the rest eat your heart out. All of the MA recordings are done in large churches, big auditoriums, and the like with a very excellent stereo mic. No mixing down, no compression, just pure and beautiful artistry captured for the ages. All yours for the absurdly low price of $15 a pop.

[Tyson]

One thing I noticed this year was a large increase in the use of tube amps, and a general move away from metal cones and domes.  Ribbon tweeters, when used, were also of generally higher quality (RAAL, to be specific).  This resulted overall in a softer and less analytical sound from a lot of rooms.  If someone were going in looking for a super transparent and analytical type sound would have been generally unhappy with the sound.  As a "tube guy" myself, I thought the overall level of basic musicality at the show was vastly improved over last year.  Every room might not have sounded "amazing", but most of them sounded pretty good IMO. 

[zane9]

So... Back to "Best of RMAF"

Best room overall for me goes to the MA Recordings room!

...Simply put each and every cd I purchased from this room is among the absolute best I have ever heard without comparison...

I wasn't at RMAF, but a big +1 for MA Recordings. This company consistently produces fantastic "real/true stereo" recordings. My favorite label.

[WGH]

I have never heard vinyl sound so good and I have a pretty good vinyl set up. The sound of the Strain gauge was heavenly.

Hi Laura,

Here are a couple of pics of the strain gauge cartridge for your wish list. 





Yes folks, they do have blue headlights.

Wayne

[ltr317]

This being only my 2nd RMAF, thought I'd chime in.  I thought a lot of rooms sounded very good this year, as opposed to a very few last year. I did notice more rooms using computers/servers for music and even a few that had problems while I was there.  Although I kind of ran out of gas on Saturday, its great to meet a few new people in person.  So, a shout-out to Woodysi, John the MagnaCart/Chair Guy, as always Fritz and this time his girlfriend Jan (have a good vacation guys), Paul Ma who knows just about every audiophile in New York, Seth of Virtue, Jim Salk and Danny Ritchie.   Wonderful people one and all and one of the reasons I go to RMAF.  Martin.   

Hey Martin,

It was great meeting you too.  Thanks for breaking bread with me at the airport before the flight home.  See you next year.

Cheers,
Paul

[vinyl_guy]

Hi Laura,

Here are a couple of pics of the strain gauge cartridge for your wish list. 





Yes folks, they do have blue headlights.

Wayne

Thanks Wayne! Great pics. If I get a nice bonus at the end of the year, the Strain Guage could very well consume it. It was good seeing you again. I'll be down your way sometime this winter to get my winter golf fix

[Mariusz]

Hi Laura,

Here are a couple of pics of the strain gauge cartridge for your wish list. 




Yes folks, they do have blue headlights.

Wayne

One of those days it will be mine all mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!