[Wayner]

Once again I have read a reference comparing a CD to it's vinyl counterpart and I was inspired to start this thread.

Here are some facts about the 2 mediums. A CD master and a vinyl master are not the same animal. A CD's dynamic range is only limited by the recording engineer and the usual state of the art in regards to CDs ability to reproduce a large dynamic range, being around 100db.

Vinyl's range is smaller (I believe like up to 75db) and the the same mix cannot be used to create both. The vinyl medium has a more limited dynamic range and requires the masters to be "homogenized" for the vinyl medium. If the vinyl version did not do this, first the actual playing time would have to be reduced by about 1/3 and there would probably be tracks that the stylus (or even the original cutting head) would simply not be able to handle. Ii read somewhere that a stylus can witness up to 300 G force on a normal vinyl cut.

So in the end when you want to compare the 2, remember your not comparing apples to apples.

Wayner

[KnowTalent]

While vinyl is definately retro chic and I would much rather have the old album art and liner notes...the amount of variables working against you in setting up a turntable/arm/needle AND the record cleaning duties are a major turn off.

The cd is much more convienent and without debating distortion, freq response, etc... can imo invoke every bit as much emotional pleasure if the recording/mastering is done properly. 

I think the lure of tubes and vinyl is more about nostalgia and exclusivity? 
Look at the crazy prices people pay for musclecars on auction....$25,000 for a NOVA 

[Wayner]

I enjoy both, and I try not to trump one over the other. I think that folks that grew up with vinyl are not as shy or intimidated as others such as newbies may be. I've heard some damn fine CDs that brought every bit of the emotion to the performance, but the same can be said for a well cared for vinyl collection, played on a properly set up and tuned TT.

Wayner 

[werd]

I am not sure where the myth is here ? But Cd  revolves around getting 2 volts of bit rate. +1 and -1 volt. which is a pure analogue reference.  with every bit of cd we can expect 6 db of dynamic range thereabouts. Its a pure digital artifact.

[werd]

Its also interesting to note that in16 bit recording not all bits are used for music. I think its only like 12. So 12 x 6 =72 db of dynamic range... hehe. Maybe 13 at 13x6 =78db of dynamic musical range....right in line with your analogue output dynamice range..

[KnowTalent]

I enjoy both, and I try not to trump one over the other. I think that folks that grew up with vinyl are not as shy or intimidated as others such as newbies may be. I've heard some damn fine CDs that brought every bit of the emotion to the performance, but the same can be said for a well cared for vinyl collection, played on a properly set up and tuned TT.

Wayner 

my comments were not meant in anyway to disparage either...
While I am old enough to have grown up listening to vinyl, reel-to-reel, 8-track and cassette I only recently (within the last 10 yrs) achieved the financial means to evaluate a broader range of products.  That said I still find an old GE Tube FM radio a treat to listen to
While I certainly have not even scratched the surface regarding vinyl, I have listened to a few highend VPI setups and more recently the Marantz (ClearAudio) TT...all at dealers...and while finding them enjoyable I wasn't moved to the point where I was ready to condemn CD as the likes of Michael Fremer tend to do.  Granted, Mikey has a LOT more experience and money to back his opinions...the reality is the listening experience is a personal one and more often than not limited by finanicial means and geographical location.  If you live in a big urban area like Atlanta, NY, San Fran...where access to vinyl is thriving...then that will definately make it a more viable option imo.
Even then, aside from lower priced Rega, ProJect, etc... offerings...it seems to me many vinyl dealers are catering toward the high dollar crowd with $4000 cartridges, $15000 tonearms, etc...
this imo futher kills the incentive to re-enter vinyl as it alludes to the fact that unless you spend $$$$$$ you're leaving alot off the "table" 

My stepfather dug out some of his fathers old 78's and we sat together spinning them on an old garage sale TT and had a great time...though as with any listening experience, I think the listeners emotional state can have far greater impact on the enjoyment of the music vs. quality of the gear.  with all the money we collectively as a hobby have spent pursuing TAS...there's alot to be said about that 

[KnowTalent]

Its also interesting to note that in16 bit recording not all bits are used for music. I think its only like 12. So 12 x 6 =72 db of dynamic range... hehe. Maybe 13 at 13x6 =78db of dynamic musical range....right in line with your analogue output dynamice range..

 

yes and with some earlier DAC implementations that might even be giving the benefit of doubt regarding what comes out the end of the pipe

[*Scotty*]

werd I'm going to have to call you on a couple of things.
First, can you clarify this statement

I am not sure where the myth is here ? But Cd  revolves around getting 2 volts of bit rate. +1 and -1 volt. which is a pure analogue reference.  with every bit of cd we can expect 6 db of dynamic range thereabouts. Its a pure digital artifact

Second,

Its also interesting to note that in16 bit recording not all bits are used for music. I think its only like 12. So 12 x 6 =72 db of dynamic range... hehe. Maybe 13 at 13x6 =78db of dynamic musical range....right in line with your analogue output dynamice range..

This statement needs a citation from an outside source rather than your (...I think it's only like 12....)
 I think I interpret your first statement to mean that by -72dB only 4bits are available to describe the analogue waveform.

Wayner the CD medium does not have a usable 100dB dynamic range, as the recorded waveform moves away from 0dB towards -100dB there are fewer bits available to describe the waveform which results in a rising distortion level as you move towards -100dB. (See my guess at the meaning of werd's first statement.) By the time you hit -70 dB you have about 3% THD.
When analogue recordings were done on tape the commonly accepted maximum THD was reached when you exceeded 0 dB by the amount necessary to produce 3% THD on peaks.
Here is a picture of the 16 bit recording medium undithered sinewave at exactly –90.31dBS,from Stereophiles measurements of the DAC Magic
as an example of how bad the distortion is.

This is why the actual dynamic ranges available from vinyl and CD are similar. 
This is also why I want to see a wider availability 24/96 recordings of popular music,ie recordings of music I am actually interested in listening to as opposed to music that Holt's law can be applied to.
Scotty 

[KnowTalent]

werd I'm going to have to call you on a couple of things.
First, can you clarify this statementSecond,  This statement needs a citation from an outside source rather than your (...I think it's only like 12....)
 I think I interpret your first statement to mean that by -72dB only 4bits are available to describe the analogue waveform.

Wayner the CD medium does not have a usable 100dB dynamic range, as the recorded waveform moves away from 0dB towards -100dB there are fewer bits available to describe the waveform which results in a rising distortion level as you move towards -100dB. (See my guess at the meaning of werd's first statement.) By the time you hit -70 dB you have about 3% THD.
When analogue recordings were done on tape the commonly accepted maximum THD was reached when you exceeded 0 dB by the amount necessary to produce 3% THD on peaks.
Here is a picture of the 16 bit recording medium undithered sinewave at exactly –90.31dBS,from Stereophiles measurements of the DAC Magic
as an example of how bad the distortion is.

This is why the actual dynamic ranges available from vinyl and CD are similar. 
This is also why I want to see a wider availability 24/96 recordings of popular music,ie recordings of music I am actually interested in listening to as opposed to music that Holt's law can be applied to.
Scotty

What effects, if any, does dithering have on distortion?

[werd]

werd I'm going to have to call you on a couple of things.
First, can you clarify this statementSecond,  This statement needs a citation from an outside source rather than your (...I think it's only like 12....)
 I think I interpret your first statement to mean that by -72dB only 4bits are available to describe the analogue waveform.

Wayner the CD medium does not have a usable 100dB dynamic range, as the recorded waveform moves away from 0dB towards -100dB there are fewer bits available to describe the waveform which results in a rising distortion level as you move towards -100dB. (See my guess at the meaning of werd's first statement.) By the time you hit -70 dB you have about 3% THD.
When analogue recordings were done on tape the commonly accepted maximum THD was reached when you exceeded 0 dB by the amount necessary to produce 3% THD on peaks.
Here is a picture of the 16 bit recording medium undithered sinewave at exactly –90.31dBS,from Stereophiles measurements of the DAC Magic
as an example of how bad the distortion is.

This is why the actual dynamic ranges available from vinyl and CD are similar. 
This is also why I want to see a wider availability 24/96 recordings of popular music,ie recordings of music I am actually interested in listening to as opposed to music that Holt's law can be applied to.
Scotty

Hello

Most mics in the recording field that i know of (but it could be different now) work on a 2volt output. +1 and -1 analogue waveform. This is pretty standard and all my references are textbooks and not on line but i will look on line for you.

A digital encoder will look at that 2 volt sinewave and digitize it into a what bit medium they use. An audio cd player looks at 16 bits of encoded data. But not all 16 bits are music. The other bits are info used by the player like track numbers and stuff like that. A great many cd players only have 2volt output but some are 2.5 and even 5volt gain added. But none the less its all based around 2 volt sinewave.
Digital encoders will take that 2 volts and change it into about 12 or maybe 14 bits of encoded music. 13 bits isnt possible like i mentioned early as there are two channels of separation (stereo).

[werd]

What effects, if any, does dithering have on distortion?

Hi kt

Dithering has big effect on distortion or jitter really. Dithering is making sure there is no trailing voltage hanging around. They adjust it by looking at 0 voltage output. If its anything other than 0 that means there is more voltage present while signal is being decoded. Where does this excess voltage end up?
In digital the voltage is extremely regulated so any excess ends up making devices heat up more than they are tolerated to, especially in dac chips, this is will destroy a dac chip eventually and make for bad sound along the way.

[*Scotty*]

werd,when you rip a copy of a CD onto your hard drive as a 16 bit wave-file where do the extra bits come from if they were not on the CD to begin with? Like wise,when a DAC locks onto an incoming data stream and identifies it as 16bit in nature is it lying and calling a 12 bit data stream 16 bit?
Scotty

[Stu Pitt]

In the whole CD vs Vinyl debate, I always come back to this, no matter what...

Why debate when you can have both?

[KnowTalent]

Hi kt

Dithering has big effect on distortion or jitter really. Dithering is making sure there is no trailing voltage hanging around. They adjust it by looking at 0 voltage output. If its anything other than 0 that means there is more voltage present while signal is being decoded. Where does this excess voltage end up?
In digital the voltage is extremely regulated so any excess ends up making devices heat up more than they are tolerated to, especially in dac chips, this is will destroy a dac chip eventually and make for bad sound along the way.

Thanks 

I wikied it and understood somewhat about artifact banding and how dither is applied to filter/smooth(?) such that it does not inject such into the output signal

[KnowTalent]

werd,when you rip a copy of a CD onto your hard drive as a 16 bit wave-file where do the extra bits come from if they were not on the CD to begin with? Like wise,when a DAC locks onto an incoming data stream and identifies it as 16bit in nature is it lying and calling a 12 bit data stream 16 bit?
Scotty

is it possible that the register indicates 16 bits though maybe not all those bits are utilized?
can't the register be partially filled with zeroes and still be id'ed as 16 bit???
not sure myself just asking...

[claytontstanley]

Here's the best quantitative evidence that I've found on the net, regarding why vinyl sounds more live than a 16/44.1 CD.



But, in the end, not even vinyl can replace a live show...

-Clayton

[KnowTalent]

Here's the best quantitative evidence that I've found on the net, regarding why vinyl sounds more live than a 16/44.1 CD.



But, in the end, not even vinyl can replace a live show...

-Clayton

What does the vertical displacement represent...freq ceiling?

[claytontstanley]

It was a bit hard to trace where that graph came from. Here's the link:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/feickert3/blackbird_3.html

Here's an excerpt:

"We found a graph at Merging Technologies that tells more than the proverbial thousand words. In this graph MT compares the impulse response of analogue playback to various forms of digital playback and shows that only full DSD can compare to analogue. It is this lightning-fast ‘unclipped’ impulse response that makes analogue sound much more ‘live’ than digital."

[KnowTalent]

It was a bit hard to trace where that graph came from. Here's the link:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/feickert3/blackbird_3.html

Here's an excerpt:

"We found a graph at Merging Technologies that tells more than the proverbial thousand words. In this graph MT compares the impulse response of analogue playback to various forms of digital playback and shows that only full DSD can compare to analogue. It is this lightning-fast ‘unclipped’ impulse response that makes analogue sound much more ‘live’ than digital."

the source does not specify but I assume it's probably voltage?
though still not measuring near analog or DSD the newest evolution in apodizing filters goes a long way in eliminating pre and post ringing seen with more conventional filter designs 

I still flinch at the claim that vinyl is "superior" because the freq response extends well past 20khz as I haven't heard many dog whistles in my life and therefore fail to appreciate how such info and superduper tweeters can benefit playback unless it involves some subconcious stimulation or whatever???

[claytontstanley]

the source does not specify but I assume it's probably voltage?
though still not measuring near analog or DSD the newest evolution in apodizing filters goes a long way in eliminating pre and post ringing seen with more conventional filter designs 

I still flinch at the claim that vinyl is "superior" because the freq response extends well past 20khz as I haven't heard many dog whistles in my life and therefore fail to appreciate how such info and superduper tweeters can benefit playback unless it involves some subconcious stimulation or whatever???

This is a fair point. Although we peak at 20khz 'continuous'. An impulse attack (a quick rise and fall) has coefficients all across the frequency spectrum.

And yes, the height on the plot is voltage. Think of the vertical displacement as the responsiveness of the playback medium.

Let's say that you have 5 seconds to push a block forward, as far as you can, before having to start pushing back. If the block is really heavy, then it won't make it very far in 5 seconds before you have to start pushing it back (high inertia causes low vertical displacement). If the block is really light, then you can get it going really quick when you start to push it, so in 5 seconds you can push it a long way before having to change directions and push it back.

With vinyl, you're pushing a table. With a CD, you're pushing a house.

And, music is all about pushing an object back and forth (rise and fall). So, impulse response is a big deal.

If you're still skeptical that we can actually 'hear' the differences that are on that plot, then good; so am I. Next, I'd probably fall back on 'jitter'.

-Clayton