[thunderbrick]

Bob, "Thunderbrick", I'm pretty disappointed you didn't come over to your buddy's house to take him for a spin. 

The Volt looks interesting. I hope the it does GM well.

Just to throw a comment out there, part of the reason the new generation of hybrids have a combustion engine, is folks worried (bitched) about a purely electric vehicle (like the EV-1). Once they reached the end of the charge, they were stuck overnight until it recharged. With modern hybrids, our sense of freedom is no longer squashed by the discharge rate of a battery.
Remember, the car manufactures are being pulled in several different directions. I won't speak of the EPA and G'mnt, etc..etc...etc..., but of the general buying public. The folks ultimately who are going to plop down twice the amount these vehicles are "worth" when compared to traditionally powered vehicles which are loaded much higher in amenities.

Just my two cents. I feel better now.
Bob

Hey, Bob, the car was on a pretty tight PR schedule here where GM is trying to make a big splash at the Missouri S&T Career Fair (Mizzou engineering grads need not apply )  I was surprised that he let me drive it.

Maybe if he heads back up I-44 Thursday I can have him stop in for a jump start!

BTW, we HAVE an EV-1 on campus, and when I was out on California back in '03 I seem to recall a bunch of roadside charging stations (for EV-1s, I presume).  I wonder what kind of taxpayer subsidies THAT cost?

I've sat in the EV-1, and helped move it around a lot for parades and other PR stuff.  The Volt feels like a car; the EV-1 was far from being one.

Oh, yeah, here is the car in front of our Solar Village...........

[Danny Richie]

Sorry, I don't understand your response to my post. I compared one hybrid (the Volt, with serial power train, in its hybrid mode) to the standard hybrid (such as the Prius, with a parallel power train). Both have gas engines (the Prius's is bigger), and both have batteries, and both have electric motors. Your response goes in several directions, but doesn't relate to my post.

Okay, let me simplify it.

The hybrid version used in the Volt is not a good solution and is inefficient.

Unfortunately, neither are real efficient on a long drive. Even the Prius engine is not only completely responsible for movement on the highway, but also for recharging drained batteries, and lugging around the added weight.

The 20 something year old EV-1 was a better solution for trips under 100 miles. It was WAY more efficient and much lower cost. A modern version of that using Lithium batteries should give you a 200 mile range between charges. 

A hybrid can shine well in city driving, but for longer distances a non-hybrid design will always be more efficient.

My 1990 model CRX got 56 miles to the gallon on the highway and 20 years later where are we now?

The Volt looks great!

Take out the engine and generator and replace it with enough batteries to give it a 100 plus mile range, then bring it in at the price of an Impala and I am a buyer.

[Phil A]

Okay, let me simplify it.

The hybrid version used in the Volt is not a good solution and is inefficient.

Unfortunately, neither are real efficient on a long drive. Even the Prius engine is not only completely responsible for movement on the highway, but also for recharging drained batteries, and lugging around the added weight.

The 20 something year old EV-1 was a better solution for trips under 100 miles. It was WAY more efficient and much lower cost. A modern version of that using Lithium batteries should give you a 200 mile range between charges. 

A hybrid can shine well in city driving, but for longer distances a non-hybrid design will always be more efficient.

My 1990 model CRX got 56 miles to the gallon on the highway and 20 years later where are we now?

The Volt looks great!

Take out the engine and generator and replace it with enough batteries to give it a 100 plus mile range, then bring it in at the price of an Impala and I am a buyer.

I can't argue with that.  It is 33-34 miles back and forth round trip to work for me and there can be bad traffic and the need to take an alternate route at times. In it's present form, it seems like a very expensive ride (basically a novelty) for someone who has a very short commute.  Given depreciation in cars and what else is available for a short commute (i.e. regular hybrid), I don't think it is really ready for prime time yet.  I sure hope it doesn't have problems as it may drive customers away from later generations of the same technology.

[geezer]

Okay, let me simplify it.

The hybrid version used in the Volt is not a good solution and is inefficient.

Unfortunately, neither are real efficient on a long drive. Even the Prius engine is not only completely responsible for movement on the highway, but also for recharging drained batteries, and lugging around the added weight.

The 20 something year old EV-1 was a better solution for trips under 100 miles. It was WAY more efficient and much lower cost. A modern version of that using Lithium batteries should give you a 200 mile range between charges. 

A hybrid can shine well in city driving, but for longer distances a non-hybrid design will always be more efficient.

My 1990 model CRX got 56 miles to the gallon on the highway and 20 years later where are we now?

The Volt looks great!

Take out the engine and generator and replace it with enough batteries to give it a 100 plus mile range, then bring it in at the price of an Impala and I am a buyer.

I see. I didn't realize you were comparing only to the EV 1. The current equivalent  comparison would be with the Nissan Leaf, which is a pure electric with a 100 mile range.

But I think you're too hard on hybrids. Up to now, the only practical choices were a hybrid vs. the equivalent standard car, and the former is clearly better in using less gas. As one who feels it is important to reduce our dependence on oil, I chose a hybrid.

Now that there are more options, what would be the best choice: the Leaf or the Volt? You apparently would choose the Leaf, but is that always the best? People who want to minimize gas use, as I do, might make different choices depending on their own situation. For example, if I could afford only one car, I would necessarily have to choose the Volt, because although 90% of days my trips total less than 40 miles, with only one car I'd need to travel further than 100 miles many times also. The Leaf is not practical for a one-car family.

With two cars, I would want a Volt for long trips, and a Leaf for the rest. Given my travel habits, I estimate I'd use the Volt, in that situation, about once a month.

You see, I'm talking about actual current conditions, which are different for different people. In the future, where there should be quick-charge stations available everywhere, something like the Leaf would clearly be the best choice for almost everyone.

[turkey]

I still can't believe they added an on board engine to turn a generator, that makes electricity, that is then stored in batteries, that then is used to power an electric motor to move the car... talk about inefficiency. That is dumber than dumb. That's malignant dumb.

I just noticed this post as a result of someone else replying to it.

IC engines are at their most efficient when operating in a very narrow speed (rpm) range and when making a certain amount of torque. (This is even more true of diesel engines, which is partly why locomotives have diesel engines powering generators, which power electric motors at the wheels. The same scheme is also being used in many large ships - for instance the Norwegian Pearl that I was just on.)

It can be more efficient to operate a small gas engine at a fixed rpm driving a generator than to have a much larger gas engine operating at a wide range of speeds and driving the car directly. Also, a large gas engine drives the car through a torque converter and transaxle. The electric motor(s) may well drive the wheels directly with no losses from a powertrain.

So, what at first seems to be more complexity and thus lower efficiency may well be higher efficiency (and in some ways may be a more elegant engineering solution).

Add in regenerative braking (as Russell Dawkins mentioned) and the efficiency increases even more.

(Ok, I just saw that geezer covered some of these points too.)

[HAL]

From what I have found in text, the most efficient IC engine is around 40%.  Where the electric system is 85%+ efficient.   What would have been interesting is to have a range like the Tesla at around 215 miles between charges. 

At this point in time without the fast fill charging stations (latest article I read would be a 480V setup that requires a trained tech to charge the car in about 30 minutes for the Leaf), the Leaf is a great commuter car, but limited in range for most folks as a single car. 

What would be interesting would have been another style of hybrid like a fuel cell and battery system.  Problem there becomes the hydrogen, methane or alcohol fuel sources and availability.  Higher efficiency from this setup than the IC/battery setup.

We are at the beginning of the process of going to electric vehicles and there will probably be many variants before going all electric until the infrastructure is in place.  This is the reason why I see the present style hybrids being done for longer until that can be installed for the general public.  The Leaf is the car to watch to see if the infrastructure goes into place. 

Maybe GM will bring out a full electric if the Leaf takes off.  They have the Volt technology that could easily be turned into a pure electric.

[Bob in St. Louis]

Bob, thanks for the photo. That sure is a great looking car.
Yea, have him pop in if he's in the area. I'd love to see it/touch it/feel it/caress it.

My 1990 model CRX got 56 miles to the gallon on the highway and 20 years later where are we now?

Danny, I've been saying this for years. I worked for Honda in the early/mid 90's.
They had 45+mpg vehicles all through the 90's. The 93 Civic VX got 48mpg if I remember correctly. Twenty years later they're claiming to be "green" by building a V6 hybrid that doesn't get any better mpg that a car that size should get anyway. What's up with a V6 hybrid in a mid/large(ish) sized car?
I don't get the math.

It's kinda like we're not even trying.

Bob

EDIT: spelling, grammar, stupidity.

[Niteshade]

IMO, the best battery ever made is the lead-acid variety. They are cheap and reliable. The AGM variety seems to be the best evolutionary step so far. What do you think of Lithium Ion batteries?

How efficient are the motor controls on 100% electric cars? Are there huge heat sink arrays in places? Are the high current electronics water cooled? 

Love the idea- but have not studied it much.

[HAL]

The batteries that seem to be the latest tech for high power applications are the LiFePo4 chemistry.  Specifically the A123 version seems to out perform the others where I could find specs.  They are used in power tools by Dewalt and RC cars due to their high discharge rate and quick recharge capabilities.  They have no thermal run away mode like other lithium cells from the mfg info.

The weight is lower than lead acid cells and that is a main need in electric vehicles.   The energy density is pretty good.  One 70 gram cell is 7.6Watt-hours of energy.  The ones that A123 make for car applications are even better than the commercial ones for Dewalt and RC cars from the articles.  Could not find specs on those.

Problem is the cost.  This will go down with time if the mfg's get bigger orders for cells.  Their useful lifetime is supposed to be 10-15 years even under heavy discharge and recharge use.  That is pretty amazing for a battery technology to me.

[Danny Richie]

The proof will be in the pudding.

Most are predicting an average highway mile per gallon for the Volt to be in the 35 mpg range. That sounds about right.

You'll have to type in the www and stuff on the links below. They wouldn't post otherwise.

The new CR-Z from Honda (looks great BTW) is rated for 39 mpg on the highway and is also a hybrid. automobiles.honda.com/cr-z/

The Insight is rated at 43 mpg on the highway.  automobiles.honda.com/insight-hybrid/

Isn't that what you have HAL?

New Accord, 33 mpg on the highway. automobiles.honda.com/accord-coupe/

Toyota Prius, 48 mpg on the highway. toyota.com/prius-hybrid/

Camry, 33 mpg highway.  toyota.com/camry/

My dads Vette with mods and a dyno'ed 495 horsepower at the rear wheel gets 29 mpg on the highway at 70 miles an hour.

My old CRX HF version got 56 mpg on the highway.

My friend Mike Woods Diesel powered Mustang gets 35 mpg on the highway and has played with gearing that will get it close to 50 mpg. It is also really fast.

blog.webridestv.com/2010/04/yes-please-200mph-diesel-mustang/ 

blog.webridestv.com/2010/04/yes-please-200mph-diesel-mustang/

[sts9fan]

The proof will be in the pudding.

Most are predicting an average highway mile per gallon for the Volt to be in the 35 mpg range. That sounds about right.

You'll have to type in the www and stuff on the links below. They wouldn't post otherwise.

The new CR-Z from Honda (looks great BTW) is rated for 39 mpg on the highway and is also a hybrid. automobiles.honda.com/cr-z/

The Insight is rated at 43 mpg on the highway.  automobiles.honda.com/insight-hybrid/

Isn't that what you have HAL?

New Accord, 33 mpg on the highway. automobiles.honda.com/accord-coupe/

Toyota Prius, 48 mpg on the highway. toyota.com/prius-hybrid/

Camry, 33 mpg highway.  toyota.com/camry/

My dads Vette with mods and a dyno'ed 495 horsepower at the rear wheel gets 29 mpg on the highway at 70 miles an hour.

My old CRX HF version got 56 mpg on the highway.

My friend Mike Woods Diesel powered Mustang gets 35 mpg on the highway and has played with gearing that will get it close to 50 mpg. It is also really fast.

blog.webridestv.com/2010/04/yes-please-200mph-diesel-mustang/ 

blog.webridestv.com/2010/04/yes-please-200mph-diesel-mustang/

Your also forgeting the VW TDI's.  My 2003 Golf IV TDI gets 50mpg easy on summer fuel and I have it chiped for more power.  Plus I can fill it with lots of stuff if I want to such as Soy Methyl Ester (not saying this is a solution).  Plus in case of the apocolypse I can run it on kerosene or used moter oil.  13gallon tank that I fill every 615 miles.   
   

[launche]

That's it Bob, I don't think they are trying that hard or are allowed too.  I think various special interests have the car companies in such a stronghold that they are not coming close to their potential.  This whole world has become about marketing, smoke and mirrors. Just give things an illusion of what people desire and keep them at your mercy.  It's becoming the same all over no matter what the product.  Fine example here in home audio.  Anytime anyone has a game changing idea the special interest groups come in to kill it, buy it and water it down or shelve it altogether.

Seriously, in the last 50 years no one can develop an audio system that can hit the mark.  We are like cave men playing with sticks and stones.  In 50 years we haven't been able to develop a better way to fuel a vehicle, really.  Look at most of the automobile advancements, it's all cosmetic and convenience related.  Same for audio and most other things.

The car companies are in bed with the oil companies and progress will come at a snails pace with a few crumbs dropped every so often to keep you grateful and in line.

[genjamon]

My 1990 model CRX got 56 miles to the gallon on the highway and 20 years later where are we now?

If there was a new CRX model that had the fuel economy and pep of the old ones, I'd trade my Prius in an instant.  Those were awesome cars.  I had my '89 CRX Si for about three years at the end of its life.  Not only did I get around 40 mpg, but I could go 0-60 in about 6.5 seconds and had it up to 135 mph in eastern New Mexico one time.  That was a FUN car.  I know the most efficient version was well above 50 mpg. 

Unfortunately, neither are real efficient on a long drive. Even the Prius engine is not only completely responsible for movement on the highway, but also for recharging drained batteries, and lugging around the added weight.   

A hybrid can shine well in city driving, but for longer distances a non-hybrid design will always be more efficient.

I have a bit of a problem with your approach here, Danny.  It's all theory, no practice.  In reality, things are more complex than you're allowing them to be here.  One of the issues with city driving for a hybrid is the need to bring the gas engine up to standard operating temp.  For this reason, any trip of five minutes or less will be only around 30mpg avg.  If all I did was make short trips in and around my neighborhood, or if I had a relatively short commute, my Prius wouldn't be any better than a lot of other small cars today.  I've found the Prius to shine in sprawling suburbs with relatively few stoplights and 35-45 mph speed limits.  In those conditions, I can cruise on battery alone for most of the time (given the torque/speed crossover point for engaging gas engine as support in the hybrid system), and avg mpg can be above 60 for significant periods. 

I have found the biggest impediment to good gas mileage on extended highway drives in the Prius has NOTHING to do with distance.  I get high 40's-low 50's mpg in mixed suburb/stop and go traffic pretty much every time.  I get the same on the highway - IN GOOD WEATHER.  Rain dramatically reduces efficiency, and wind has a HUGE impact.  Trust me, I live in Kansas!!!  A solid 15 mph head wind will knock me down to the low 40's mph easily, and a cross wind isn't much better. In no/low wind on the highway, though, I'll easily be above 50 mpg for extended trips.  No worse than average in-town driving.

One thing I'd like to end with is that my opinion is it's all about weight.  The car companies and general public conspire to produce cars that are weighted down with way way too many creature comforts that add way too much weight.  While I agree that there are weight considerations with different power train solutions, in the case of hybrids those are compromises for greater efficiency in the overall power train.  What's the real problem is the size of cars and the weight found in additional stuff.  What was the real beauty of those CRX's?  They only weighed around 2000 pounds!!  With that weight, you could get pep and performance with a 100-115 hp four cylinder.  Put a hybrid system in that chassis, and you'd get some real efficiency....oh wait, they did that already.  Honda's first Insight hybrid was exactly that.  And it got high 50's to 60's mpg, some hyper miler types even got low 70's.  Why didn't those take off?  Because people like sedans more than economical cars, and the Insight had to compete with the version two Prius.

[HAL]

Danny,
I have the 2006 Honda Civic Hybrid with CVT.  It is rated 49/51 mpg city/highway.  I typically get in the low to mid 40mpg range as I like the torque to much!   My friends Prius gets about the same.  The Honda is bigger in the interior than the Prius so I can get my wife and mom (89 this year with a walker) around comfortably. 

We looked at the new Insight this year but it was to small for us.  Have not seen the new CR-X as a comparison point. 

What I am finding is that the A/C on the car during the high temp days really brings down the milage.  When it was in the upper 90's to 100 range here, it was getting 38+mpg typically.  Now that it is cooler the mpg is going back up into the 40's. 

It is just about at 60000 miles.  Probably needs new plugs to get the mpg back up. 

[Danny Richie]

Your also forgeting the VW TDI's.  My 2003 Golf IV TDI gets 50mpg easy on summer fuel and I have it chiped for more power.  Plus I can fill it with lots of stuff if I want to such as Soy Methyl Ester (not saying this is a solution).  Plus in case of the apocolypse I can run it on kerosene or used moter oil.  13gallon tank that I fill every 615 miles.   

Man, that's awesome! Those are really great. My buddy Greg Hogue has the worlds fastest diesel powered Beetle. There is a lot of info on it on line. Or Facebook Greg Hogue.

What someone needs to make for the electric cars is a small utility trailer with another battery pack. Just hitch up and plug in for another 100 to 200 miles of range.

http://www.motorcycletrailer.com/sng1/

[thunderbrick]

Since we're talking mileage, I averaged 31mpg highway in my E39 BMW 525i last summer on a 1,000-mile round trip to the EAA fly-in at Oshkosh, and I wasn't doing the speed limit.  I DO practice driving gentle on the accelerator and NEVER use cruise control!  I drive like the truckers; faster downhill, and bleed off some speed when going uphill.  No sense having cruise control blast me up a hill when I know damned well the crest is coming up soon.  It's also a great way to drive when you don't know who is sitting in the downhill side. 

And I usually run 75-80.  Or more.

[Danny Richie]

genjamon and HAL, I appreciate your real world feedback.

[HAL]

Actually I think someone did this with a Prius for some reason.  I do not remember where I spotted the article.

That switch that lets it go all battery power lets the modders do extra battery packs.  Toyota added that feature after listening to the modders.  Now that is pretty cool!

[sts9fan]

I drive like the truckers; faster downhill, and bleed off some speed when going uphill.

Unfortuately the torque of my diesel makes blasting up hills to fun to trim speed. 

[HAL]

genjamon and HAL, I appreciate your real world feedback.

Anytime!

Now I just need to retire so I can build the GT40 roller body with the 100kw electric motor system and battery pack idea!

If someone would build a resonably priced sports car with an all electric drive (think Tesla on a budget), I think there would be a big market.  This would get folks excited about electric car tech.  The torque at low end is amazing!