[rklein]

I did a bit of calculations a while ago regarding "cost savings" for driving a Toyota hybrid.

Figuring in the out of warranty cost of replacing battery packs and converting that to gasoline cost,
the lucky Toyota Prius owner is really getting 17 miles per gallon - almost as much as my 2002 350HP Audi S6 Avant.   Logged

Frank:

I have to disagree with your above statement.  My daughter recently bought a 2010 Prius and I also did some research.  The entire hybrid system(which includes the hybrid battery pack is warrantied for 8 years/100 k miles.  BTW, that is a full warranty(not pro-rated).  No cost for parts or labor.  In addition, if you do need to replace the battery out of warranty, your Toyota dealer should offer you a $200 rebate/bounty on it, so that it gets properly recycled.  The price for a hybrid battery for 2004-current models has dropped to $2,588.  However, you can buy them used on ebay for @$1,000.  As far as the average life span??  Nobody really can answer this as there just hasn't been enough of them failing.  Right now she is averaging @50 miles to the gallon.

Is the Prius for me??  NOPE!  I drove BMW 330i's and now have a 2010 Maxima.  

Randy

[turkey]

(rumored as much as +$20k in CA) is no worry, the government feels compelled to add a $7500 "incentive" (huh?), to go along with all of the other tax dollars we've likely poured into it.

That's one thing I was meaning to mention and didn't. We also have to look at any incentives that the government is giving to us or the car maker for these alternative energy or hybrid vehicles. Since we're going to try to look at the total cost to society of each option, getting a $7500 tax incentive for buying a Volt is just robbing Peter to pay Paul.

[turkey]

I have to disagree with your above statement.  My daughter recently bought a 2010 Prius and I also did some research.  The entire hybrid system(which includes the hybrid battery pack is warrantied for 8 years/100 k miles.  BTW, that is a full warranty(not pro-rated).  No cost for parts or labor.  In addition, if you do need to replace the battery out of warranty, your Toyota dealer should offer you a $200 rebate/bounty on it, so that it gets properly recycled.  The price for a hybrid battery for 2004-current models has dropped to $2,588.  However,

That's good news. Now I'd just be afraid of a failure of the other parts of the hybrid system at 110K miles. How much would that cost?

8 years and 100K miles is not really that long for a car these days, particularly in areas where there isn't road salt or salt spray from the ocean.

It's a pretty safe bet to take the risk that a car using a gasoline engine will last longer than 8 years or 100K miles. Do we have enough data to say the same about hybrid vehicles?

[genjamon]

I'm at 95,000 miles in my 2004 Prius.  Six weeks ago at about 94,000 miles I had my first non-basic service maintenance expense.  The starter lead-acid battery (not the hybrid system battery) needed replacing, $200 or so for battery and labor.  It's probably about 5 mpg less efficient now than it was in the first 50K miles, so I'm down to an average of high 40's mpg instead of low 50's.

[rklein]

That's good news. Now I'd just be afraid of a failure of the other parts of the hybrid system at 110K miles. How much would that cost?

8 years and 100K miles is not really that long for a car these days, particularly in areas where there isn't road salt or salt spray from the ocean.

It's a pretty safe bet to take the risk that a car using a gasoline engine will last longer than 8 years or 100K miles. Do we have enough data to say the same about hybrid vehicles?

All valid points for sure...Actually, I talked my daughter into buying the Prius.  She was looking at the Mazda 3 and the Subaru Impreza(my favorite).  However, she also wanted leather, bun warmers, etc. which the Prius IV had.  It was $4,000 more than she wanted to spend but for every 20,000 miles driven she would save $2,200 in gas over either of those cars(based on a 25 mpg difference at $2.75 a gallon).

You are absolutely correct. 100k is nothing anymore.  When I bought my 2002 BMW 330i, I gave my 98 Honda Accord Coupe to my son with 187,000 miles.  He recently sold it with 245,000 miles!

Hopefully, this Prius will last just as long as the gas engined Mazda or Subaru.  Before she bought the Prius, I did go online and tried to find a bunch of dissatisfied early Prius owners that were experiencing problems but could find no more complaints than any other car(actually less).  BTW, as much as I loved driving the BMW 330i    BMW dealers spent more than $5,000 fixing problems from malfunctioning window regulators to broken tork convertors while the car was still in its 4year/50k bumper to bumper warranty.

Randy

[Russell Dawkins]

I still can't believe they added an on board engine to turn a generator, that makes electricity, that is then stored in batteries, that then is used to power an electric motor to move the car... talk about inefficiency. That is dumber than dumb. That's malignant dumb.

Accepting that you know what "malignant dumb" is  the unarguable fact is that, complex as you make this sound, it is still simpler than the straight gasoline/diesel alternative due to the potential simplicity of final drive train, not to speak of the potential for regenerative braking. The simple proof is in the performance figures - acceleration potential vs mpg - these have been outstanding even from the very first home-builder versions (back in 1979 I got plans for one, based on an Opel GT, from Mother Earth News). 
http://tinyurl.com/rcj27q
This was powered by a 75HP jet starter motor and the battery bank - lead-acids - were charged by a Briggs and Stratton 5 hp motor in the trunk. It cost around $1500 then, got 75 mpg, and it followed exactly the system you described as malignant dumb!

Ponder that!

[geezer]

I still can't believe they added an on board engine to turn a generator, that makes electricity, that is then stored in batteries, that then is used to power an electric motor to move the car... talk about inefficiency. That is dumber than dumb. That's malignant dumb.

I think you have it exactly backwards. As I think you know, the Volt uses only battery power until it goes beyond the (approximately) 40 mile electric range, then it reverts to hybrid mode. Current hybrids have what I call "parallel" power systems, in which either the electric motor or the gas engine drives the wheels. The Volt uses a "series" power system. In this case, as you said, the gas engine never drives the wheels. Its only job is to drive a generator, when necessary, to keep the battery charged. This is MORE efficient, not less, for at least a couple of reasons.

Because the speed of the electric motor is easy to control, the Volt will not have to have the massive and complex transmission system that all other cars have. This will partly compensate for the weight and cost of the battery, and will reduce the costs and inconvenience of maintenance.

Secondly, gas engines have a narrow range of rpm when they are running at their most efficient. Since in the Volt the gas engine is not connected to the wheels, it can be designed to ALWAYS run at its peak efficiency while charging the battery.

[Don_S]

Let's not forget that these vehicles will evolve in time.  For all the real or imagined faults of these early models, they hold a promise for the future.  Think of them as Model A's or Model A's (MKIIs). And you can get them in colors besides black.

[Danny Richie]

No, I don't have it backwards.

That car has to lug around a dead engine and generator all the time. When battery power is depleted then it is used to charge the system back up. While running it is MUCH less efficient than driving the wheels.

And a 40 mile range is a joke! Even their 20 year old EV-1 would do 100 miles or more using older generation Nickel batteries.

And that gas engine isn't even close to being as efficient as the average power plant at producing electricity.

Just looked it up: EV-1's with the lead-acid pack had a range of 80 to 100 miles, while the NiMH cars could travel between 100 and 140 miles between charges.

[Russell Dawkins]

What are you talking about, Danny?

40 mile range?

I described (and linked to) a 31 year old home built design using a cheap lawnmower engine (very inefficient) and 4 lead acid batteries (hardly high tech) and delivering 75mpg and 750 mile range on a tankful in spite of the relatively primitive technology being used - because the system is inherently efficient

At any speed up to that requiring more than the motor/generator can put into the battery bank there is no drain on the batteries. The battery power is needed for acceleration, hill climbing, or speeds over what the motor/generator alone can supply. When you consider that a medium size aerodynamic car needs, say, 15 hp to cruise at 75 mph, a 20 hp motor is enough to provide for up to 75 mph cruising. Cruising at higher speeds necessarily entails drawing from the batteries, but that is the only limitation. Theoretically your maximum speed is limited by the electric motor power only, but if you exceed the max continuous speed you will have eventually to slow down to allow the then-surplus power from the motor to bring the batteries back up.

[HAL]

According to the articles I have read, the Volt goes 40 miles on a charge before the gas engine starts recharging.  The Li-Ion pack weighs 440lbs.  It has to move the gas engine which is rather large and generator at all times.  This is the reason the range is more limited on battery than the Nissan Leaf that is a full electric plug-in.  The advantage is the extra range that the Volt can go before recharge/gas fillup. 

[Danny Richie]

What are you talking about, Danny?

40 mile range?

What HAL said:

According to the articles I have read, the Volt goes 40 miles on a charge before the gas engine starts recharging. 

I described (and linked to) a 31 year old home built design using a cheap lawn mower engine (very inefficient) and 4 lead acid batteries (hardly high tech) and delivering 75mpg and 750 mile range on a tankful in spite of the relatively primitive technology being used - because the system is inherently efficient

They can claim that if they want but it doesn't work that way.

You can't use a 5 horsepower lawn mower engine, to turn a generator, to charge the batteries, while draining it with a 20 horsepower electric motor. The electric motor running at 20 horse power will drain the batteries WAY faster then the 5 horsepower lawn mower engine can keep up.

For the 5 horsepower lawn mower engine to keep up you might get 2 or 3 horsepower off of it with the electric motor if you are real lucky.

[Russell Dawkins]

Sorry, I don't have the patience nor time to go further with this.

I'll point out just one inconsistency: just because you are using a 15.2 kW (20hp) electric motor doesn't mean you are drawing 15.2 kW all the time. The only time you do that is as I said, during acceleration, steep hill climbing and higher speeds. In real life these figures would be higher - more like 25hp for the gas/diesel and 60-80 hp for the electric.

I'm aware that electric generators and motors typically run at around 85% efficiency.

My original point was only that for an idea that is beyond dumb to you, it sure works like a hot damn!

[genjamon]

I'm with Russell on this one. 

[Danny Richie]

My original point was only that for an idea that is beyond dumb to you, it sure works like a hot damn!

No Russell, it doesn't work that way at all. What is claimed in that article is not true at all.

If you used a 5 horsepower motor to turn a generator, and then an electric motor from that, (no batteries involved) you still only get about 3 horsepower off of it.

And to propel a car down the highway at 50 miles an hour you are going to need at least 20 horsepower.

And the newer style Warp 8 and Warp 9 DC motors need 96 to 144 volts on them to make a continuous 20 to 30 horsepower needed to drive at highway speeds. And you just aren't going to make that kind of power with just 48 volts.

[jimdgoulding]

Don't know the particulars but I admire the way GM is challenging the status quo with their new product and provocative advertising.  They are stepping up and out.

[Danny Richie]

Do the math in that article.

"the engineer installed four 12-volt, heavy-duty automobile batteries-in series-which are "fed" by a 100-amp generator that's run off a 5-horsepower lawn-mower engine."

That 5 horsepower motor won't even be enough to drive that generator to full power.

But let's pretend that it can and the whole system is 100% efficient.

If the 100 amp generator was producing 48 volts (feeding the 4 batteries) that equals 4800 Watts or 4.8 kilowatts. That's 6.4 horsepower of total output from the generator.

For perspective, a golf cart doesn't weigh very much by comparison and most are 48 volt systems with 3 to 3.5 horsepower motors. The high torque motors make 5 or more.

How fast do they go?

[HAL]

Some fun with numbers.

If the motor was a 144VDC unit, it would take 2860 A123 LiFePo4 cells to make up the 440lb pack.   The storage would be about 22KWh.  Now that is a battery!    

Imagine what it could do powering an audio setup!  WOOHOO!

[Bob in St. Louis]

Bob, "Thunderbrick", I'm pretty disappointed you didn't come over to your buddy's house to take him for a spin. 

The Volt looks interesting. I hope the it does GM well.

Just to throw a comment out there, part of the reason the new generation of hybrids have a combustion engine, is folks worried (bitched) about a purely electric vehicle (like the EV-1). Once they reached the end of the charge, they were stuck overnight until it recharged. With modern hybrids, our sense of freedom is no longer squashed by the discharge rate of a battery.
Remember, the car manufactures are being pulled in several different directions. I won't speak of the EPA and G'mnt, etc..etc...etc..., but of the general buying public. The folks ultimately who are going to plop down twice the amount these vehicles are "worth" when compared to traditionally powered vehicles which are loaded much higher in amenities.

Just my two cents. I feel better now.
Bob

[geezer]

No, I don't have it backwards.

That car has to lug around a dead engine and generator all the time. When battery power is depleted then it is used to charge the system back up. While running it is MUCH less efficient than driving the wheels.

And a 40 mile range is a joke! Even their 20 year old EV-1 would do 100 miles or more using older generation Nickel batteries.

And that gas engine isn't even close to being as efficient as the average power plant at producing electricity.

Just looked it up: EV-1's with the lead-acid pack had a range of 80 to 100 miles, while the NiMH cars could travel between 100 and 140 miles between charges.

Sorry, I don't understand your response to my post. I compared one hybrid (the Volt, with serial power train, in its hybrid mode) to the standard hybrid (such as the Prius, with a parallel power train). Both have gas engines (the Prius's is bigger), and both have batteries, and both have electric motors. Your response goes in several directions, but doesn't relate to my post.