The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread

Danny Richie · « **Reply #60 on:** 23 Feb 2011, 07:38 pm »

Well, did you get these things up and playing yet?

And BTW, guys. I still have some of these cabinets.

praedet · « **Reply #61 on:** 24 Feb 2011, 02:25 pm »

Waiting for it to warm up enough that I can do some more work!

praedet · « **Reply #62 on:** 6 Jun 2011, 08:53 pm »

Well, I am bumping this thread from the dead...

I am using Norman's instructions for reference. I had sanded and then filled to my satisfaction. I then started the finishing process. I put about 5 layers of semi-gloss poly on the sides to fill the end grain. The next step is veneering the top and bottom. That is where my problem lies...

I have only done the bottom of one cabinet. It is a flat surface. I am using veneer with no backing so that there is no paper line on the sides. I am using the iron-on method with titebond 3.

I practiced with a small piece of veneer and the method went great...

I just did the bottom of a single speaker The veneer cracked during the process, even with using steam to try and soften it...

So, first, what do I do now? Do I remove the veneer? How? Or, do I let it stay and veneer a new piece on top?

How do I keep this from happening again? Lower temps? More water?

Anyway, I'd love help as I am sad and mad right now as I have a LOT of time in these to mess them up now

Ted

Will2 · « **Reply #63 on:** 6 Jun 2011, 08:58 pm »

Have you tried using veneer softener? I've found that helped me avoid veneer cracking.

ebag4 · « **Reply #64 on:** 6 Jun 2011, 09:03 pm »

The veneer softener is something I will try next time I am using a highly figured Maple or similar that splits very easily. I found that lowering the temp and not letting the iron stay in one spot as long help reduce splitting. In the end it would probably be best to use a softener however.

Best,
Ed

praedet · « **Reply #65 on:** 6 Jun 2011, 09:07 pm »

I just ordered veneer softener, and better-bond glue...

So, how do I fix the current piece?

Will2 · « **Reply #66 on:** 6 Jun 2011, 09:33 pm »

I had a similar problem - I just used an iron on the veneer to re-heat the glue under the veneer and used a putty knife to take the veneer off. This should work well if you just recently put the veneer on - the glue should soften up quite easily.

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #67 on:** 6 Jun 2011, 09:58 pm »

Cracking is always going to be one of the problems with iron on method. You dump that much heat into veneer and it expands, then cools and contracts again. Except when it tries to contract, there's glue holding so it cracks. I don't use iron on except with backed veneers, unbacked is just too unstable and cracking is a pretty likely result. On flat surfaces I don't know why you'd try iron on, cold press is a MUCH better method and just as easy. All you need to do is cutout a piece of MDF about 1/2" proud all the way around the top/bottom perimeter and use those as your clamping cauls ... put a piece of wax paper between them and the veneer. And when you cold press you can use any glue you like, like PVA Urea glues or even epoxy that will never move or delaminate.

Sorry but you don't fix the current piece. You'll need a heat gun and paint scraper to scrape off as much as possible, then sand the substrate back smooth and try again.

Also softener isn't the answer. It may help it from cracking while ironing or shortly after, but instead the cracking will just happen a week or two later.

Plund · « **Reply #68 on:** 7 Jun 2011, 01:09 am »

OK Turbo, you've also captured my attention with the cold press method. I experienced cracking/splitting of my raw cherry veneer using the iron-on method. It cracked even though I was using softener...both with titebond 2 and also with Heatlock.
Question. would you recommend softener, used to remove some 1/4" plus ripples, and the cold press method?

Pete

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #69 on:** 7 Jun 2011, 01:41 am »

Quote from: Plund on 7 Jun 2011, 01:09 am

OK Turbo, you've also captured my attention with the cold press method. I experienced cracking/splitting of my raw cherry veneer using the iron-on method. It cracked even though I was using softener...both with titebond 2 and also with Heatlock.
Question. would you recommend softener, used to remove some 1/4" plus ripples, and the cold press method?

Pete

Sometimes when I'm lazy I don't even flatten wavy veneer, and cold press will lay it down glass smooth. Of course I'd recommend that you flatten it with softener and some pressing ... I just don't always follow my own advice.

About the only tricks to cold press are to use a glue roller to get the glue on evenly. And I apply the clamps starting at one end and work my way to the other, that will push out any bubbles or extra glue.

praedet · « **Reply #70 on:** 7 Jun 2011, 03:20 am »

All right, cold press method it is...

I am not looking forward to removing the veneer

So with the cold press method, do I need to do a coat of shellac on the glue side of the veneer to prevent bleed through? Any thoughts on the type of shellac (I'd like to get it from a place in town like an Ace hardware)

Ted

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #71 on:** 7 Jun 2011, 04:01 am »

Quote from: praedet on 7 Jun 2011, 03:20 am

All right, cold press method it is...

I am not looking forward to removing the veneer

So with the cold press method, do I need to do a coat of shellac on the glue side of the veneer to prevent bleed through? Any thoughts on the type of shellac (I'd like to get it from a place in town like an Ace hardware)

Ted

Shellac on the glue side? Never heard that one before ... no, not needed. Just glue on the substrate, slap the veneer down and clamp. I don't even worry about bleed through unless I'm using a very porous veneer like a burl. You can if you want put a piece of wax paper between the dry side of the veneer and your clamp platten.

praedet · « **Reply #72 on:** 7 Jun 2011, 04:06 am »

I'm using a burl maple...

So what do I do to control bleed through?

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #73 on:** 7 Jun 2011, 04:14 am »

Quote from: praedet on 7 Jun 2011, 04:06 am

I'm using a burl maple...

So what do I do to control bleed through?

Hold it up to a light and look at it, how many pinholes of light are you seeing? Better yet, post pics of a sheet.

I assume you're bookmatching down the middle?

praedet · « **Reply #74 on:** 7 Jun 2011, 01:55 pm »

I will try to take some pictures today. There are a few pin holes in the pieces I am planning on using for the tops and the bottom that hasn't been done.

I am limited on choice for the redo as my 4 matched pieces are just big enough for 2 chances, and I used the best part for the first try...

Why would I bookend for just doing the top and bottom separately?

Norman Tracy · « **Reply #75 on:** 8 Jun 2011, 04:24 am »

Ted,

Sorry to hear of the challenges you are experiencing. Jumping in with unbacked burl maple veneer does count in my book as tight rope walking sans safety net. Take heart anything that can be built can be rebuilt so this can be fixed and the project brought to a successful conclusion. I speak from experience from both minor and spectacular veneer failures so take a deep breath and we wil get this fixed!

I'm on vacation so I just noticed this thread's section on your veneering troubles and your PM to me so let me comment on what's been said.

1. Regarding using heat to remove the failed attempt, I advise it won't work and why bother? I say will not work assuming as we discussed you used Titebond I or II and by now it has chemically crosslinked with and into the wood. When all goes well this stronger than the wood bond assures us the veneer will not be lifting in a couple of years. The downside is when something goes wrong, its on there. There are classes of glues used in veneering like musical instrument maker's "hide" glues and modern equivalents designed to soften with heat forever, but Titebond I or II are NOT one of those. I say "why bother" because you describe the problem as "veneer cracked" and if the resulting surface is flat or can be sanded flat I would just try again right on top of the failed attempt. The speakers I posted pictures of on page 3 of this thread have one top with two layers of curly maple veneer due to a glue bleed through issue.

2. Given your use of unbacked burl maple veneer which has demonstrated it does not like heat I agree with Turbo that a cold press glue & clamp process is called for. That is what I used for the curly maple veneer speaker pictured on this thread and as mentioned I used to much glue on one attempt and suffered bleed through, which is why I suggested the easier to control hot press method. A thousand apologies that I failed to anticipate the heat would become the issue, I have no experience with burls yet. My glue bleed through with the curly maple was simply too much glue, as I recall I had painted it on both the plywood and veneer too thick. On the second try I backed off the amount and all went well. I wonder if the pinhole concern with the burl couldn't be addressed by holding it up to light and putting blue masking tape over the holes on the outside trying to keep the glue just in the hole not bleeding through to the finish side. Anyone with some experience with burls care to comment?

3. Watch out for glue color vs. veneer color. One of the (several) reasons I have sworn off (after swearing at) contact cements is their bright colors showing through the veneer for example along edges. And FYI because I maintain it should be renamed contact-cement-for-a-little-while-but-not-that-long-temporary-adhesive. I mention color because you said you have bought some Better-Bond and looking it up they talk of some of their product being tinted. And just to be clear you are trying the better bond cold press glue, not their Heat Lock heat activated glue, correct?

4. Finally (for now) all the discussions have focused on scrapping your first attempt for a re-do. Is there any chance the cracks can be repaired? Are there a few or many? How do they fit in with the grain pattern? In my curly maple veneering I had some 1/16" wide tear out along the edge while trimming the edge. Using scrap from the same veneer I glued in patches that after sanding and finishing are invisible. Using wax paper covered calls and lots of clamping force to push the carefully trimmed patch into the good veneer did the trick. Remember we like veneers because of the wonderful random patterns of the wood grain and these can also be used to blend in and thus hide repairs.

best of luck

Norman

Vapor Audio · « **Reply #76 on:** 8 Jun 2011, 05:40 am »

A couple points from Normans post.

Yes, you can heat and remove veneer that's been applied with Titebond. I've done it a couple times. It takes elbow grease of couse, but really not a huge deal in this case since they're fairly small flat panels. You will need a heat gun though, clothes iron or hair dryer won't do it.

And about bleed through, that's why you use a glue roller ... to put the proper amount of glue down to begin with. Put the wax paper down under your clamping caul, and yes you'll still get some bleed through but unless you have 1/8" holes in your veneer, don't worry about it. Just sand it smooth after the glue has dried and finish as normal. You won't see it when finished unless you nose is 6 inches away.

praedet · « **Reply #77 on:** 8 Jun 2011, 01:41 pm »

Thanks for all the help guys, and thanks for the direct response Norman!

I had already started the process of removing the veneer with a heat gun and some elbow grease, it is coming, if slowly. I contemplated simply using the veneer as another layer but decided against it.

I will a cold press with a scrap piece of veneer with lots of holes to see how it goes as far as bleed through. The veneer I am using is actually both curly/quilted, and has burl areas. So I guess I will post an update once I have removed the current stuff and have the next piece on! Thank you so much for your help, and Norman, enjoy your vacation!

Ted

sch · « **Reply #78 on:** 13 Jun 2011, 06:43 pm »

Another option:
Don't apply any veneer at all and simply use the "layers" as the end finish. Like the Magico Mini. I did this with a project years ago. I'll try to find my old files. So far this is the only photo I've been able to find:

praedet · « **Reply #79 on:** 13 Jun 2011, 07:40 pm »

I am trying to understand what I am looking at. Did you paint the last layer black or dark brown?