The Stacked Baltic Birch N2X Ideas and Assembly Thread

persisting1 · « **Reply #20 on:** 2 Oct 2010, 08:44 pm »

I've been waiting for some updates. Thanks for the pics

praedet · « **Reply #21 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 05:44 pm »

I'll put up some pics a little later, but I finished gluing the 1st speaker this morning. Some more notes for for those who will be doing this. Put on a layer, clamp it to get it down fully, then remove the clamps add the dowels and glue, and add the next layer. Clamp to compress, wipe off the glue, and move on. Doing it this way I got about 5-6 layers in the 10 minute working time for the glue. I might beable to go faster on the second one so I can get it glued in 2 steps. While the glue I am using says you only need to clamp for 30 minutes, I have been waiting almost 24 hours between steps. Just trying to make sure this works the first time

So, I am going to odraw the templates for the No-Rez today before all my "templates" are glued together...

I can see already that getting the No-Rez on the interior is going to be REAL hard with those awesome braces. Oh well.

For the first time veneer guy, any recommendations on the type of veneer to use if I am only doing the tops and bottoms of the enclosure?

Does everyone think these will look good with a clear coat on the sides, curly/burl maple veneered top and bottom, and satin painted baffle?

face · « **Reply #22 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 05:54 pm »

Why not just stain and poly the sides/top/bottom?

praedet · « **Reply #23 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 06:38 pm »

Based on the reading I have done and the comments above, it sounds like Baltic Birch doesn't take stain well. So, I plan on using clear grain filler and then poly on the sides, but I thought the curly maple top would match in color but be very pretty with simply a clear poly...

Ted

face · « **Reply #24 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 06:46 pm »

As it stands right now, I'll be using pre stain and red stain on a pair of BB cabinets in the next month or so. The front baffle is 3.5" thick with plenty of grain exposed. I'll let you know how I make out.

praedet · « **Reply #25 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 06:56 pm »

^^^Awesome, please do as my initial plan was cherry stained sides

dvenardos · « **Reply #26 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 07:46 pm »

With birch you just need to pre-treat it before you stain it.

Don_S · « **Reply #27 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 08:08 pm »

Quote from: dvenardos on 4 Oct 2010, 07:46 pm

With birch you just need to pre-treat it before you stain it.

Don, What do you mean by pre-treat? I am confused about the issue here. I understand some solid woods (e.g. birch, maple, cherry) do not take stain very well but my experience with fir plywood is that end-grain sucks up stain like a sponge. How is the end-grain of birch plywood different?

Thanks, Don

dvenardos · « **Reply #28 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 08:45 pm »

Oh right, I forgot that this is all end grain. I was referring to what I learned when staining my birch veneered AV-1RS from an experienced finisher.

http://www.tweakcityaudio.com/forum/showpost.php?p=21555&postcount=21

Quote

Birch is not a very easy wood to stain. It does NOT take stain evenly at all. What needs to be done on things like Birch, Poplar and Pine, is a pre-wash coat prior to staining. I usually use a 50/50 cut of dewaxed shellac and denatured alcohol. Apply at least two coats of the wash, then use a gel type stain (like you have in that particular minwax product). You will get a VERY even coat of color and not have the blotches. You can then "tone" the color by adding dye or toner (just like is used to tint paint) added to some regular shellac. Apply several coats of the shellac/toner until you get the desired look you want, then finish off with catalized laqueur or varnish (polyeurathane) of choice.

It may seem a bit daunting, but shellac is EXTREMELY easy to use, dries in an hour or less and can easily be completely removed by wiping with denatured alcohol (even after it dries), if you somehow "get it wrong" or want a different look.

But the real key to a beautiful finish on something like Birch, is the one to several coats of the 50/50 (shellac and denatured alcohol) wash coat before ever applying any type of stain. Sanding will be of no use in getting those spots to take the stain any darker.

And, FWIW.... the mass market wood "pre-treaters" like from Minwax, are basically junk. It's MUCH easier to mix your own. That way, you can experiment on scrap from your project to get the right mix of shellac to denatured alcohol that's going to give you the results you are looking for. The key to a great looking stain job? Practice, practice, practice on scrap until you get it just right for that project.

toxteth ogrady · « **Reply #29 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 09:17 pm »

The problem with birch is that it looks best when unfinished. Applying a clear finish makes the wood far too yellow and trying to stain the wood opens a whole other can of worms because the finish can get very blotchy. Visit some of the woodworking forums and you'll find that even professionals have a tough time staining birch unless using a muti-step spray on method. I'm not not saying it can't be done, but I have never been able to get a professional finish when attempting to color the wood using a wipe on finish. The closest I've come is to use 1/2lb cut of dewaxed shellac as a seal coat followed with one or more coats of a gel stain like the ones from General Finishes. Trying to stain laminated layers of Plywood is even trickier because you're predominately dealing with end grain which will darken excessively. I'd suggest doing a lot of tests on scrap to nail down your technique.

Here's a video which describes the method I mentioned above - http://thewoodwhisperer.com/73-coloring-blotchy-woods/

dvenardos · « **Reply #30 on:** 4 Oct 2010, 09:45 pm »

Depends on the look that you are going for. I really like the variation that you get with birch. I didn't pre-treat these so you would get less when pre-treating.

Quote from: toxteth ogrady on 4 Oct 2010, 09:17 pm

The problem with birch is that it looks best when unfinished. Applying a clear finish makes the wood far too yellow and trying to stain the wood opens a whole other can of worms because the finish can get very blotchy. Visit some of the woodworking forums and you'll find that even professionals have a tough time staining birch unless using a muti-step spray on method. I'm not not saying it can't be done, but I have never been able to get a professional finish when attempting to color the wood using a wipe on finish. The closest I've come is to use 1/2lb cut of dewaxed shellac as a seal coat followed with one or more coats of a gel stain like the ones from General Finishes. Trying to stain laminated layers of Plywood is even trickier because you're predominately dealing with end grain which will darken excessively. I'd suggest doing a lot of tests on scrap to nail down your technique.

Here's a video which describes the method I mentioned above - http://thewoodwhisperer.com/73-coloring-blotchy-woods/

praedet · « **Reply #31 on:** 7 Oct 2010, 02:49 pm »

Finally posting up the pics from a few days ago. The 2nd speaker is done and I have been sanding the 1st about 30 minutes a day...

Sanding these sucks

Oh well, they will look really nice soon enough!

Don_S · « **Reply #32 on:** 7 Oct 2010, 04:23 pm »

Another danger with wipe-on stains is they show up all the glue you think you sanded off.

Been there, done that.

praedet · « **Reply #33 on:** 7 Oct 2010, 04:32 pm »

I am leaning towards a clear finish on the plys...

eclein · « **Reply #34 on:** 7 Oct 2010, 05:14 pm »

Keep sanding it will be a big payoff, they look great so far, are you doing no-rez or other?

BrianH · « **Reply #35 on:** 8 Oct 2010, 04:36 am »

Regarding sanding off glue, I normally just wet an area with rubbing alcohol to show up anything that might appear when finished.

There may be better stuff but it works for me, no surprises when I put on finishes and I often use wipeons.

Brian

Norman Tracy · « **Reply #36 on:** 8 Oct 2010, 03:41 pm »

Ted, that's looking GOOD.

Here in reply to your question above considering "poly on the sides, but I thought the curly maple top" is one of my stacked ply cabs clear on the side with bird's eye maple veneered top.

The center photo is with camera flash, top & bottom pics use natural light. Of course one of the things that is so cool about both veneers like curly maple and thick stacked birch ply is how it changes with differing light.

Finish is Minway wipe on poly. Very forgiving and workable. Once it starts to build I like to wet sand between coats. On light woods like birch and maple when its built up thick enough for a high gloss the golden color of the poly changes/darkens the wood tone (the center pic is closer to what they look like in person). To maintain the light tone of raw birch or maple one must use a water clear finish.

Don_S · « **Reply #37 on:** 8 Oct 2010, 03:49 pm »

Brian, Thanks for the neat tip. I will remember that---next time. Did you have any problems with oils in the rubbing alcohol? I avoid using denatured alcohol as much as possible because the smell makes me sick. Rubbing alcohol is more pleasant to work with.

Quote from: BrianH on 8 Oct 2010, 04:36 am

Regarding sanding off glue, I normally just wet an area with rubbing alcohol to show up anything that might appear when finished.

There may be better stuff but it works for me, no surprises when I put on finishes and I often use wipeons.

Brian

srb · « **Reply #38 on:** 8 Oct 2010, 04:38 pm »

A good compromise is to use the 91% isopropyl alcohol available inexpensively everywhere. It doesn't have the added glycerin of 70% rubbing alcohol or the intense odor of denatured alcohol.

Steve

praedet · « **Reply #39 on:** 8 Oct 2010, 11:06 pm »

The various hints are awesome folks, the one about the alcohol is brilliant. I wonder if I can just pour on some of the bourbon that I will need to drink to finish sanding these

Yeah, Norman, those are what inspired me. Any hints, exact directions, and/or specific tools/brands you used that you want to send me in a message, would be AWESOME

These are the first speakers I have built. So, here are some hints for the other folks that are new to this type construction like me...

1. While there are dowels to align the pieces, you will not have them perfectly aligned. Take the time to do your best at aligning them before clamping because ANY mis-alignment will mean a more sanding. Sanding these is not fun.

2. If you are working quickly, have the individual pieces lined up exactly as you want to put them on. Simply taking off a piece you just put on with dowels and all is hard, let alone getting another one on and the dowels out of the mistake piece before the glue starts to harden

So far I am using both a block with sand paper and a palm sander. The block with sand paper is for evening out gross mistakes and the palm sander is for smoothing out the whole side. I will do final sanding with a large block such as what was mentioned above.

I should have one 95% sanded tomorrow so I will post pictures of the u-nsanded and sanded one side-by-side...