PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 45540 times.

Fife

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 47
PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« on: 24 Feb 2004, 07:27 pm »
Any Bryston Amp owners compared the two?

Considering the following:

B&W CDM 1NT/SE   vs.     PMC TB2/DB1

Have any people owned or heard both of them?

Thanks in advance.

KJ

PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #1 on: 25 Feb 2004, 12:29 am »
Haven't compared the two, but the Bryston products match up well with the B&Ws (IMO).  I'm still using a 3BST with a pair of M805s after 5 years and have been very happy with them for my starting system.

I've heard both ST and SST with the entire Nautilus line and was quite impressed.  Of course, everyone's entitled to their own opinion.  There are a lot of other components that play a large factor (preamp, cabling, room setting, etc).

I'm still set on using Bryston products when I move to the next level of speakers, whatever that might be.  Hope that helps you with one half of the equation.

-KJ

Allezvite

PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #2 on: 25 Feb 2004, 01:23 am »
I did listen to what I think used to be called the CDM 7 series B&W floor-stander with a Bryston 3BST and BP25 preamp with Rotel 991 CD player.

We heard the system with the B&W's first and it was kind of ho-hum, pleasant I guess, but not very engaging.

We switched over to a pair of PMC FB1's and the difference was like night and day.  Pace, rhythm, timing in spades, it was like they wanted to get up and dance.

I'm sure that the design philosophy extends to the bookshelfs that you are asking about.  I've always found the B&W's to be kind of slow.

A dealer in Toronto sells the B&W because of the name.  They admit that at lower prices there are plenty of other makes that they carry that are better performers AND better value.  Same dealer was blowing out 805 Nautilus speakers at $2,599 cdn because he couldn't sell them at the list of $3,500.

Fife

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 47
PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #3 on: 25 Feb 2004, 02:58 am »
Thanks for your replies.

Funny how I have brought my Bryston to my friends house who has both the B&W Matrix 805's and the CDM 7NT's. Havent tried the Bryston 4BST with the 805 but with the 7NT, the sound is quite good. However, my friend is currently using an older Accuphase and the sound seems warmer.

I think its time to demo some PMC's!   :D

KJ

PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #4 on: 25 Feb 2004, 03:07 am »
Allezvite - Not to get on a B&W discussion, but could you clarify how exactly the speakers you heard sounded "slow?"  Did they sound out of phase?  Not broken in?  Just trying to understand.  I've never listened to any other B&W products below the 800 line so I'm trying to imagine what you describe.

The Bryston/B&W combination always sounded very neutral to me.  Not overly bright and the Bryston amps provide great clarity.  I'll admit the B&Ws are high on the "bang for the buck" scale.  Fortunately, I purchased mine well below MSRP.

At any rate, the Bryston factor certainly seems to bring the best out of the speakers I've heard to date.  I'm sure they only help with the PMCs as well.

-KJ

gazza982

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 32
PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #5 on: 25 Feb 2004, 06:57 am »
I use 2 x 7B SST to drive my B&W Nautilus 800s and a 6B SST with my Nautilus 803 rears and HTM1 center.  You  do need big amps to get the best out of them but I wouldn't describe the bass as slow.  The 800s are accurate rather than in your face and go very low yet controlled.  They are still the best sounding speakersI've heard for £11000/$16000 a pair.

Allezvite

PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #6 on: 25 Feb 2004, 07:30 pm »
Quote from: KJ
Allezvite - Not to get on a B&W discussion, but could you clarify how exactly the speakers you heard sounded "slow?"  Did they sound out of phase?  Not broken in?  Just trying to understand.  I've never listened to any other B&W products below the 800 line so I'm trying to imagine what you describe.

The Bryston/B&W combination always sounded very neutral to me.  Not overly bright and the Bryston amps provide great clarity.  I'll admit the B&Ws are high on the "bang for the buck" scale.  Fortunately, I pu ...


Granted, a good question.  My take on "slow" is this:  

A "slow" speaker will tend to average out the dynamic peaks a bit, everything comes out sounding nice but not necessarily lively.  The speed at which the woofers start and stop is definitely a consideration too.  Some transducers seem to accelerate and stop quicker than others.  This is both a function of electrical and mechanical design (efficiency, meaning how efficient is the transducer at translating voltage to pistonic motion, plus weight, materials, suspension etc.).  That is why you seldom see 12" and 15", or 18" woofers in speakers any more, too much inertia.  Most dynamic speakers use multiple small woofers to obtain the cone area as opposed to single large units (generally speaking).

This is also why so many audiophiles are enamoured with the large panel speakers like Martin Logan, Quad ESL, Magnepan that use lightweight materials and are capable of responding quicker to the demands of the music signal with real snap and fast attack compared to cone speakers.

The average music signal features transient attacks (especially rock, jazz  and dance music) that may go from nothing to +50db in microseconds.  Some speakers are better than others at responding to this electrical signal and translating it into cone motion and consequently the movement of air.

A slow speaker tends to lose out in bass articulation, and pitch definition (the ability to tell one note from another and when it starts and stops).

Some speakers seem to energize a room more dynamically with the musical transients (snare & bass drum sounds) than others do, responding with more agility to the dynamic peaks and valleys of the music signal.

My Dad's old Rogers speakers are positively sleepy.  They are pleasant and neutral but not dynamic at all.  Some speakers CAN sound boring.

The folks over at Linn refer to PRAT.  Pace, Rhythm, Timing.  Does the sound of the system move you?  Can you follow the singer, the beat, the words etc. better on one speaker system vs. the other?  Sure you can!

Some speakers get your feet tapping and pull you into the performance, and some are ho-hum, good for background music but not good enough to command your attention for any length of time.

If this is sounding very subjective, I apologize, but system pace and timing is a feature of audio performance that the British have known about for years that we North Americans are just catching up on.

There was nothing wrong with the CDM7's when I listened to them, in fact the midrange was very liquid and engaging.  In comparison, it is well known that the PMC FB1's can sound a bit bright.  However, in the bass department, the PMC's, which I would consider a "fast" speaker were able to sound more bouncy and responsive to the rhythmic pulses of the music than the B&W's.

My two cents.  May the flames begin.

Levi

Slow speakers or fast amps?
« Reply #7 on: 27 Feb 2004, 05:27 pm »
Well the majority of speakers in the market today are radial/cone type.  Isn't the amp is the primary responsible for the speakers behaviour?  Would a "FAST amp" and high damping factor dectates what the speaker should do?  I need for enlightenment here.

cp10932

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 8
PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #8 on: 27 Feb 2004, 06:22 pm »
I auditioned both the B&W (N802 and N803) and PMC speakers (specifically OB1) about two months ago.  I couldn't find a dealer that has both B&W and PMC so side by side comparison wasn't possible.  THe source and AMPS components used were also quite different; so take this as a subjective opinion.

After careful listening to these speakers, I clearly preferred the N802.  The OB1 was better than the N803.  The problem with the OB1 was it lacked the full bodiedness that the N802 presents music in.  The OB1 just gave a very nice mid and high with somewhat inadequate bass.  For a floorstanding speaker, I expected the OB1 to perform better in the low end.  So, I bought a pair of N802.

Levi

B&W vs OB1
« Reply #9 on: 27 Feb 2004, 06:57 pm »
Putting your findings into consideration, It is very hard to compare speakers if the variables are not the same.   I know because it happend to me.  

Here is a good example.  The speakers that I bought and auditioned sounded good in my dealer's showroom but when I bought it and brought it home, it lacked the bass and the dynamics that I had remembered when it was at the showroom.   Several calls from the manufacturer and after days of moving the speakers around proved that it was the room acoustics.   Everything was the same but the room dimensions.  If I had not auditioned the speakers in the showroom, I would conclude that the speakers that I bought lacked the dynamics and the bass is anemic.   As for me, finding the right speakers (the one i like) for my application is a slow and painfull process.  I hope it is easier for you.


Quote from: cp10932
I auditioned both the B&W (N802 and N803) and PMC speakers (specifically OB1) about two months ago.  I couldn't find a dealer that has both B&W and PMC so side by side comparison wasn't possible.  THe source and AMPS components used were also quite different; so take this as a subjective opinion.

After careful listening to these speakers, I clearly preferred the N802.  The OB1 was better than the N803.  The problem with the OB1 was it lacked the full bodiedness that the N802 presents music in.  The OB1 j ...

KJ

PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #10 on: 27 Feb 2004, 07:52 pm »
Quote from: Allezvite
This is also why so many audiophiles are enamoured with the large panel speakers like Martin Logan, Quad ESL, Magnepan that use lightweight materials and are capable of responding quicker to the demands of the music signal with real snap and fast attack compared to cone speakers.


Would a cone design (such as the B&Ws or PMCs) provide a wider focal region in the listening area compared to a panel speaker?  Ie, do I have a better chance of providing quality sound to those not sitting directly in the firing path with a cone design?

-KJ

teaandcake

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 6
PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #11 on: 15 Feb 2005, 08:38 pm »
I have previously owned a pair of CDM 1 NT's and at the time of auditioning new amps BP25/4B SST I borrowed a pair of FB1's.  The two speakers are really quite different in their voicing. The B+W's as with all most B+W's I have heard are rather bright in the upper midrange, this can lead to a sense of transparency allowing the listener to hear into the music better. This coupled with the metal tweeter can lead to a sound that is initially impressive but ultimately fatiguing. The CDM seemed to excel with classical and simple acoustic music however they seemed unable to keep up when playing rock, dance or other complex music. Also there seemed to be an overall lack of coherence when the going got busy.

The FB1 was a vast improvement on the CDM in almost every area, with the exception that the midrange on the FB1/OB1 (not sure about other models) is a bit restrained I felt that I had to listen at slightly higher volumes to achieve that same hear into the music feeling as with the CDM.
I am not saying that the midrange is better on the CDM its just quite different , bottom line would you prefer a slightly bright  and possibly irritating speaker or one that is very neutral/slightly restrained that really excels with all types of music?.

John Ashman

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 553
    • http://forum.adnm.com
PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #12 on: 15 Feb 2005, 08:54 pm »
B&Ws are an "acquired taste".  If you like it, you like it.  But it's not all that accurate or low distortion, especially in the midrange.  They are voiced with a forward upper mid and they purposely allow a lot of "breakup mode" distortion to pass through with the high 4kHz crossovers.  That's why they sound "detailed" to some and "fatiguing" to others.  It's really cone resonance.  However, since most people seem to think of it as detail, I think they do it on purpose and rationalize it in their design briefs.  If you read them, it seems like they had no choice but to use an FST/Kevlar midrange with high breakup problems when, in fact, there are multiple other solutions used by normal, clever speaker companies.  But it's a "unique" solution to a simple problem.  Kinda like having a big goverment in order to solve poverty.  You don't solve the problem, but at least you have all the advantages of a big government going for you.  :D

ctviggen

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 5251
PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #13 on: 15 Feb 2005, 09:01 pm »
I've gone on many trips to listen to speakers, and I'll always rate B&Ws way up there in the "I can't believe anyone likes these" category.  I went one time with my friend and we listened to about 10 speakers in the 4k-10k range, and I had to turn off the B&W we were listening to -- it was ear-piercing.  It was the only speaker I absolutely couldn't listen to for more than a minute (and we used the same songs on every speaker).  We also went into another room and listened to the flagship (at the time) B&W, and it was only marginally better in terms of listenability.  

They're definitely an acquired taste.

nicolasb

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 345
PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #14 on: 16 Feb 2005, 02:42 pm »
I'm quite a fan of B&W's slightly-more-high-end speakers, but I've never cared for the cheaper models much. In particular I find the whole CDM NT range thoroughly annoying. They have a curious muffled quality, as if they're playing from the bottom of a basket full of socks.

The Nautilus 800 series, on the other hand, are quite good. I'm currently using a pair of Nautilus 803s and an HTM1 centre (driven by a 9B-ST and SP1.7) and it's a highly effective combination (or at least it would be if my living room didn't have such God-awful acoustics  :evil: ).

I've never listened to the Nautilus 800, but nearly everyone I've spoken to who has has been absolutely bowled over by them, so long as they have adequate amplification (a pair of 7B-SSTs, for example). At the time they first came out they were regarded as a serious candidate for the best speakers in the world.

I've also not listened to any of the new 800 series, but, on paper at least, they should be rather fine. B&W claims that the 805S is, in all respects, more accurate than the old Signature 805, and that was a damned impressive speaker at £2500 a pair. If the 805S really does sound as good as that at only £1600 for the pair, every other manufacturer operating in that price bracket may as well just pack up and go home. :)  

But maybe it doesnt, I don't know.

The specs of the 802D are also mightily impressive - potentially superior even to the old N800 (once you get out of the deep bass region, anyway).

dan_lo

  • Jr. Member
  • Posts: 52
B&W vs OB1
« Reply #15 on: 16 Feb 2005, 05:43 pm »
Quote

After careful listening to these speakers, I clearly preferred the N802. The OB1 was better than the N803. The problem with the OB1 was it lacked the full bodiedness that the N802 presents music in. The OB1 just gave a very nice mid and high with somewhat inadequate bass. For a floorstanding speaker, I expected the OB1 to perform better in the low end. So, I bought a pair of N802.


Come on - it's not the same room, equipment or price range. The N802 is much more expansive than the ob1.

KJ

PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #16 on: 18 Feb 2005, 02:20 pm »
Quote from: nicholasb
B&W claims that the 805S is, in all respects, more accurate than the old Signature 805, and that was a damned impressive speaker at £2500 a pair.

That might be a stretch, but I would expect B&W to market the new line as such.  I went and listened to the N803S and wasn't overly impressed (granted, it hadn't been broken in for more than a few hours).  The old N802 was still easily a better speaker in every way.  I hope for B&W's sake their Diamond line is a night and day improvement given the new pricing.   :o

-KJ

KJ

PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #17 on: 18 Feb 2005, 02:26 pm »
BTW, for anyone seriously comparing the before mentioned speakers, the N803S I listened to had the following setup (again keeping in mind they were barely broken in):

Rega Jupiter source
Bryston BP-25 pre-amp
Bryston 4B-SST amp
Kimber 8TC speaker cable
Kimber interconnects (exact model unknown)
Echo Buster room treatment across the board

-KJ

nicolasb

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 345
PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #18 on: 18 Feb 2005, 02:36 pm »
Mind you, the 803S isn't supposed to compare to the old 802. Old 802 vs 803D would be a more interesting comparison.

KJ

PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #19 on: 18 Feb 2005, 02:42 pm »
Quote from: nicholasb
Mind you, the 803S isn't supposed to compare to the old 802. Old 802 vs 803D would be a more interesting comparison.

True.  Guess I was hoping for more improvement over the old design for the $500 increase.  Of course, it was probably short of being fully broken in by ohhhhh about 350 hours!

-KJ