PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers

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vegasdave

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #60 on: 13 Feb 2009, 10:24 pm »
Thanks for that. Much appreciated.  8)

kiko

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #61 on: 18 Feb 2009, 02:09 pm »
Thanks mv....83!
One reason for I want to experience PMC is the difficulty for ProAc (but I only heard studio range, never been in front a D model) to play the full-range keeping coherence. Sometimes, low freq seem to be slower than the others, extremely realistic though.
Comparing a PB1i with a D38, what can you say about this parameter?
Moreover, which is better in smoothness of hi freq, mid freq sweetness, wideness and airiness, being easy to drive and matching accuphase amplifiers sound?
kind regards

mvwhiting_83

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #62 on: 18 Feb 2009, 08:53 pm »
Kiko,

I see that the D38 is a bit more sensitive than the PB1i (91.5>87), but the nominal ohm rating for the PB1i is 6 whereas the D38 is 4.  So I would think that D is very capable of some serious SPL if driven with copious amounts of power, but the same goes for the PB1i; and with the ATL I believe the actual power handling would be a good bit higher than the 250 watts recommended for the D38...  With the PB1i while it can handle exorbitant amounts power it can also be driven by modest levels as well.  Which would lead to the question of which Accuphase you're using?

The D38 is a 3 driver two way design, which if executed (which ProAc surely has accomplished) well can offer a very nice and open sound with satisfying characteristics ascross the spectrum.  However, with our 4 driver three way design, which I can only assure you is well executed with the PB1i - if you combine the unique crossover design (steep slopes), dome mid range, and solonex tweeter I believe we can more thoroughly satisfy the tonal characterstics you are looking for, i.e. sweet mids, airiness on top, with a vast dispersion that makes for a entire room being a sweet spot.  All said, it is with the low mids to deep (almost subterranean) bass performance that will seperate us from ProAc... Compression which can be a fault of some two way designs is not an issue and will never haunt the dynamic capability and coherence that is required for cinema or more lively musical material.

SF

Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #63 on: 19 Feb 2009, 03:19 am »
Just a couple of observations regarding bass definition and slam that I have noticed on my B&W 804S. This is likely to apply to the PMC speakers as well. Recently I made two changes both of which markedly improved the bass -- it bacame much tighter, was more pronounced, and became faithful to the dynamics of the music being played back. First, I doubled up on my 8TC biwire (9AWG) by adding two runs of Monster XPHP (12AWG x 2 = 9AWG). Total run is 10 feet. The change was noticeable. For those who care, the damping factor increased from mid 80s to mid 100s. Then I upgraded my 4BSST (300 wpc) to 14BSST (600 wpc). This was a bigger difference. 804S measurements show impedance dropping 5ohms with a capacitance phase angle -60 in the 40-70 Hz range. This means, you need a lot reserve power on the amp end and low dissipation along the cable to drive the speaker properly. At -60 phase angle, only 25% of the power is being transferred to the speaker. The 5ohm impedance requires 1.6X current. Togther, this means nearly an increase of 6-fold in power requirements to be able to deliver same SPL. So if you drive them at 100W, you will need 600W in 40-70 Hz region unclipped. So anyone who says the bass is inadequate on any speaker will need to have made sure that sufficient power was available to the speaker. I would highly recommend the cheaper of the above upgrades, just double up on your wire-run, and if you can, get the speakers as close to the amp to cut length as well. Hope this helps.

kiko

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #64 on: 19 Feb 2009, 09:01 am »
Dear mv....83,
you've been actually helpin' me!
Since you, I become more and more capable to make a convinced choice, you have me converge towards a product meeting my tastes.
The matter of sweetness and smothness is clear now!
Sincerely, I was in doubt about those topics due to professional origins of your brand.
Pardon moi, just few more topics to go.  :oops:
I have a E-308 integrated amplifier, would like to keep it since I usually hear music at low levels (and, in few words, I'm very satisfied about both sound and power), always lookin' for nuances, instead of being flooded by hundreds of watts, I cannot stand high volume levels.
Nevertheless, I've been lookin' for loudspeakers able to....how can I say....be activeted and sound fast and "physically", show a realistic scene, at low volume levels yet. We know that any loudspeaker system has its own lowest striking volume to sound "full" and detailed.
I'm trying to evaluate which is lower in volume between PMC PB1i & ProAc D38, this is my last doubt. I don't know, maybe it also depends on sensitivity? (once the amplifier is fixed)
Regards

mvwhiting_83

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #65 on: 19 Feb 2009, 06:20 pm »
Mr. Kiko

With a transmission line speakers such as ours, you would be amazed at the level of detail and especially bass response at around 60-70db, which in its own right is just as much a treat as our high level performance.  Not a terrible amount of speakers can offer their "signature sound" at low levels.  So it is a joy when a monitor can do exactly what you want it to at 120db just as well if not better at 70db.  You will hear no shift in tonality when you raise or lower the volume.  This sonic "maintenance" at all levels of playback that I speak of is pretty much a by-product of what people in the studio need and.  You can't work a 10 to 14 hour shift blasting at reference level, that would get old very quickly...  With the ProAc from what I've read, and my experience from other models to get the sonic goods you're going to have to heap generous amounts of wattage and play at what I think are higher levels than your comfortable listening level.

Glad to help!

b5pt9

Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #66 on: 19 Feb 2009, 07:55 pm »
I concur with mvwhiting about the PMC bass response at various listening levels.  The IB1's continue to amaze me, and next week I will be replacing the 4BSST with a 14BSST for even better control over the entire frequency range aa

SF

Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #67 on: 19 Feb 2009, 08:29 pm »
bppt9

You will really enjoy the upgrade to the 14B; it made a world of difference in my system. Bottom end is heavier, top end is sweeter, and overall tone is exceptionally coherent. Let us know how it goes.

SF

b5pt9

Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #68 on: 19 Feb 2009, 08:38 pm »
Thanks SF, I'll certainly let you know how it goes.  I was a little nervous dropping so much coin on the 14B because the 4B seems to do a pretty good job, but there was enough consistency in reviews from folks who have upgraded that I eventually got the confidence to go for it :)

mkaiser

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #69 on: 20 Feb 2009, 01:32 am »

Hi kiko,

You may want to check out Klipsch's new "Palladium Line" of speakers as they seem to answer all your concerns about efficiency and being able to play at extremely low levels without loosing any of the details and dynamics or having to purchase a larger amp. All the Palladiums can be ran efffectively with as little as 50 WATTS.
They are also priced competively with PMC's prices.

kiko

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #70 on: 20 Feb 2009, 09:30 am »
thank you very much mv....83!

to mkaiser: don't like this brand, too aggressive sound, for tone and acoustic scene main plane too ahead.

mkaiser

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #71 on: 20 Feb 2009, 07:25 pm »

"to mkaiser: don't like this brand, too aggressive sound, for tone and acoustic scene main plane too ahead."

Not this line of Klipsch kiko, this is 10 years in the making.
Forget all the bad experiences you had with Klipsch in the past. They have corrected all of what you mentioned above, i spent 13 hours in 2 different occasions with the new P37 floorstander in Espresso veneer as it was the first Palladium offered for demo into Ontario, Canada and my dealer was the first to get them in. I too didn't like Klipsch such as their Reference Line and i agree with you what you say above but, this Paladium Line will change alot of peoples minds about Klipcsh now and what they can bring to the table.
The entire Palladium Line is "build to order" and not mass produced like all other Klipsch lines.

Anyway, just thought i'd help as i know nobody has heard these.... you'll be amazed.   :thumb:

mvwhiting_83

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #72 on: 20 Feb 2009, 07:53 pm »
I've heard side by side the Palladiums and OB1i, the characteristics that Kiko is seeking are readily found in the PMC....  That and every single model we make is built to order. It could be 20 years...  But they are still Klipschs

kiko

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Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #73 on: 21 Feb 2009, 01:11 pm »
dear mkaiser,
what you may consider is that the choice of a speaker, a typical brand, a particular sound, is a cultural choice!
I believe in Klipsch beeing a GREAT brand, producing wonderful speakers, but even as a teen ager I had always chosen kind of english speakers, first kef, then rogers, lastly proac.......although I had organized a listening session with Klipsch's, also with JM Lab, Infinity (in the 80's!), etc.
It is 15 years now I've been definitively appreciating proac sound.
When you are able to comprehend and follow your natural tastes, you "musically grow" tending to a certain sound, it's not a choice at the beginning, it's a natural tendency, then, through the years, it becomes a baseline, thus a choice just among few brands close to your own taste.
I'm sure that on this table I'll never find out someone badly talkin' about PMC, expecially mv....83.
Nevertheless, I wanna take the risk, also thanks to the extreme kindness and skill of the italian PMC distributor, Mr. Baratto.
« Last Edit: 23 Feb 2009, 10:15 am by kiko »

werd

Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #74 on: 28 Feb 2009, 08:25 pm »
The PMW speakers r the best imo , and where can i get a pair of these pmw speakers, can i get them with an 18in woofer?

werd

Re: PMC Speakers vs B&W Speakers
« Reply #75 on: 1 Mar 2009, 12:42 am »
Dear mv....83,
you've been actually helpin' me!
Since you, I become more and more capable to make a convinced choice, you have me converge towards a product meeting my tastes.
The matter of sweetness and smothness is clear now!
Sincerely, I was in doubt about those topics due to professional origins of your brand.
Pardon moi, just few more topics to go.  :oops:
I have a E-308 integrated amplifier, would like to keep it since I usually hear music at low levels (and, in few words, I'm very satisfied about both sound and power), always lookin' for nuances, instead of being flooded by hundreds of watts, I cannot stand high volume levels.
Nevertheless, I've been lookin' for loudspeakers able to....how can I say....be activeted and sound fast and "physically", show a realistic scene, at low volume levels yet. We know that any loudspeaker system has its own lowest striking volume to sound "full" and detailed.
I'm trying to evaluate which is lower in volume between PMC PB1i & ProAc D38, this is my last doubt. I don't know, maybe it also depends on sensitivity? (once the amplifier is fixed)
Regards

Hey Kiko, u say u dont like music at high volume levels, i dont either.(occasionally i do). But i do own a pair of Acoustic zen adagio floor standers (about a
150 watts or so into 8 ohms) and also a 4bsst2. The 4bsst/2 is twice the power of the recommended power of the speakers which is ok. I listen to my speakers carefully as to not clip em or come close. But my point is that these big power amps are not like they use to be, Bryston among others have a ton of finasse and dynamics at low volume. They also flesh out your speakers at any volume in away that not easily done by low power amps or integrateds. with lots of power u dont need to worry much about sensitivity and all that other stuff its all taken care of.

So if u have a chance go check some big power amps and try using them in a more gentle manner and I think u will be surprised.
« Last Edit: 2 Mar 2009, 05:04 am by werd »