[roymail]

I've noticed that the speakers using "waveguide technology" like Gedlee, SP Technology, and a few others are pretty costly.  From everything I've read, they are also very good.

Do you think we'll see more companies using waveguides, and do you think the cost will lessen over time? 

[tesseract]

 I hope we do see more less costly designs. Keep an eye on the Tweak City Audio Pro-10.

[JLM]

I like the waveguide idea.

With markups the way they are, a $100 of parts/materials become a $1,000 speaker at MSRP.  And it gets worse as prices go up from there.

Checking out what individuals can buy some of the drivers and crossover parts used in most 5 figure speakers would shock you.  Yes, I believe in supporting the advancement of good sound and have actively done so, but the profit margins are excessive.  Seems to me that too much money ends up going into outdated marketing methods (paper magazines and bricks & mortar retailing).

[Cacophonix]

I like the waveguide idea.

With markups the way they are, a $100 of parts/materials become a $1,000 speaker at MSRP.  And it gets worse as prices go up from there.

Checking out what individuals can buy some of the drivers and crossover parts used in most 5 figure speakers would shock you.  Yes, I believe in supporting the advancement of good sound and have actively done so, but the profit margins are excessive.  Seems to me that too much money ends up going into outdated marketing methods (paper magazines and bricks & mortar retailing).

True, but gedlee, SP tech/Aether etc are internet only companies.
Also, you need to factor in the R&D costs as well. I'm sure they have put in thousands of hours in researching and designing their speakers.

[Doublej]

I think some of the pro audio companies such as Mackie and KRK use waveguides.

[Wayne1]

The constant directivity wave guide was first patented by Don Keele when he worked for Electro-Voice in the early '70s. He then went on to JBL to 1984 where he hold patents on their Bi-Radial series of CD waveguides.

CD waveguides can be had at all price ranges. They are used in a lot of pro audio speakers. QSC, currently has a engineer that used to work with JBL designing their waveguides.

There are many DIY projects making use of inexpensive JBL waveguides along with the Peavey and Dayton clones. There is a VERY long post on AudioKarma showing many projects using the JBL waveguide with a Selenium compression driver to replace the high frequency drivers in many older speakers. The Original and Larger Advent speakers being very popular donors. Econo-Wave

I have done this myself. I was very pleased with the outcome of my E-waved Advents. I even made a couple of others. We had a small listening session here in Denver some time ago and the Advents did not shame themselves.




Geddes Abbey, E-waved Advents, and
Yorkville Unity listening session

There is also another thread on the PartsExpress TechTalk forum showing different versions of waveguides used with new woofers in pre-made cabinets. All the BOM is listed. This can present an opportunity for someone who is a bit handy to build out a pair for quite a bit less than commercial offerings More Econo-Wave designs

[roymail]

Thanks, guys!  I really appreciate the posts so far, and I'm hoping more will jump in here. 

[konut]

Aether and Geddes are small boutique operations with limited production capabilities and unique, proprietary geometries in the waveguide, and electronics that preclude mass market production potential limiting reductions in cost. I know of no other speaker brand that CNCs a horn from a solid billet of wood as Bob at Aether does. Geddes' foam filled oblate spheroids are made from a custom mold at considerable expense. The other manufacturers cited in this thread are considerably larger companies that can take advantage of mass production economies of scale. That said, the guides themselves differ considerably from the geometries that differentiate Aether and Geddes resulting in a less refined presentation. To be sure, the main focus of the larger companies is the professional sound community rather than the home entertainment/high end market.
    I've seen, and heard, a fair number of 'studio monitors' that feature "wave guides" but it is unclear as to what extent the engineering in these is rigorous enough to satisfy a discriminating audiophile. Every example I've heard has had a defect in presentation usually having to do with anomalies in the crossover region. One of these days one of the mass market producers, or a new outfit, will get it right. 

[Wayne1]

I forgot to include Duke LeJeune's Audio Kinesis line.

http://www.audiokinesis.com/product_ak_rhythm-prism.html




The Rhythm Prism uses the same waveguide I used in my Advents. I guess Duke thinks it is refined enough for him 

The JBL Everest DD66000



and the K2



are two of the finest speakers I have ever heard at any price.

They do use waveguides and they are from Harman International. They are also VERY expensive.

Ray Kimber used them for his demo system at RMAF last year as more appropriate replacement for the monster SoundLabs electostatics he had used in previous years.

[Duke]

I've noticed that the speakers using "waveguide technology" like Gedlee, SP Technology, and a few others are pretty costly.  From everything I've read, they are also very good.

Do you think we'll see more companies using waveguides, and do you think the cost will lessen over time?

Waveguide loading doesn't work well with inexpensive tweeters; a powerful magnet is needed to maintain good top end extension.  And once you've gone to that trouble, it would be a shame to seriously cut corners on the woofer.  Finally, the crossover will almost inevitably be more complex than for a corresponding conventional system, and the cost of good crossover parts adds up pretty fast.  Now that's not to say the price can't come down if a large manufacturer sets its sights on doing a budget waveguide speaker, but in general there may well be these additional expenses beyond just the waveguide itself.

The Rhythm Prism uses the same waveguide I used in my Advents. I guess Duke thinks it is refined enough for him. 

At this point I have three domestic and two prosound designs that use it, and more may follow.   The model in the image is 2.5 grand/pair, which is arguably on the low side for a waveguide-type speaker... but then, Wayne, you know what I paid for the waveguide!

[cujobob]

Large, efficient, quality woofers cost money.  High quality high frequency drivers to mate also cost a lot of money.  Proper constant directivity designs take large waveguides, even if they are cheap and mass produced, they're still large and require a lot of space.  Large cabinets cost a lot of money.  It adds up.

[poseidonsvoice]

Large, efficient, quality woofers cost money.  High quality high frequency drivers to mate also cost a lot of money.  Proper constant directivity designs take large waveguides, even if they are cheap and mass produced, they're still large and require a lot of space.  Large cabinets cost a lot of money.  It adds up.

It's not just the expense of waveguide technology, (primarily in the tooling as Earl Geddes does and designs them from the ground up with his own molds), but many of the pro drivers are NOT inexpensive. Just look at the price of the B&C 12TBX100 that is used in the Abbey or the 15TBX100 on the Summa. They are not cheap! The  price on the 15TBX100 from parts express sells is about $285 each. The 12TBX100 sells for about $225 at many retailers. Of course, the fact that they hail from Italy doesn't make them cheap either! Don't even look at the list prices, they are about 30-40% more!

Anand.

[turkey]

I've noticed that the speakers using "waveguide technology" like Gedlee, SP Technology, and a few others are pretty costly.  From everything I've read, they are also very good.

In the case of the GedLee speakers, the drivers used are expensive. I can think of a number of expensive speakers that have far less of their cost in drivers than do the GedLee models.

They're also made in small numbers, and anything with limited production tends to be expensive.

However, I think the GedLee speakers are a very good value, because they outperform anything else at their price point. I have about $2100 in my Nathans and subs, and the only thing that I think even comes close is the Orion system, and it would be far more expensive. I don't know of any system, even up to $200K or more, that I'd rather have than the Nathans. (Ok, if you were giving stuff  away I'd take a $200K speaker system, sell it and buy some Abbeys, and then pay off some bills.)

Do you think we'll see more companies using waveguides, and do you think the cost will lessen over time? 

I'm sure we will see more companies using horns and waveguides. We will even see some other companies using waveguides well.

The cost is going to be tied to how many of each model are sold. Earl has said a number of times that he could drastically reduce the price if he could sell enough to make it worth mass-producing them.

[jtwrace]

I wonder if Dr. Geddes injection molds or hand molds the waveguides.  If injection I may be able to help if he was interested of course.   

[TomS]

I wonder if Dr. Geddes injection molds or hand molds the waveguides.  If injection I may be able to help if he was interested of course.   

I think it's just not enough volume to pay for the tooling.

[sts9fan]

Is it really that much more money?

[FredT300B]

I've listened carefully to Dr Geddes' speakers, Wayne Parham's Pi speakers, and several of Duke's AudioKinesis speakers each year at the Lone Star Audio Fest, and I've built a pair of Wayne's Three Pi speakers. This experience has convinced me that waveguide speakers, toed in 45 degrees so their axes cross in front of the listener, offer some of the best soundstage imaging of any speakers I've heard.

Just for fun I decided to build an inexpensive Econo-Wave pair that can be used for home audio or as pro sound speakers in the house concerts I host every few months. I just received the parts for this pair using the new Dayton 12" pro woofers that retail for $75/ea and  the Selenium D-220 drivers with the very inexpensive Dayton H-6512 waveguides.

I'll be building them in rectangular DIY 1.8 cu ft ported birch plywood enclosures,  but the $69 1.6 cu ft Parts Express trapezoidal birch plywood flat pack enclosures could be used, making it possible for somebody who doesn't have tools or woodworking experience to build a pair for a very reasonable price. Not many 12" woofers can be used in an enclosure that's smaller than 2 cu ft. Using the PE pro woofers the bass extension will be limited and a subwoofer will be needed for home audio use, but not for vocal and acoustic guitar reinforcement in pro sound applactions. I plan to build the enclosures next week and will post some comments when they're completed.

[gedlee]

I wonder if Dr. Geddes injection molds or hand molds the waveguides.  If injection I may be able to help if he was interested of course.   

My process is hand pooring with room temperature curing.  This is quite an expensvie way to go but has the lowest tooling costs and can be done in small batches in small places.  Injection molding is only a fraction of the piece cost, but with enormously high tooling and requires a large scale factory setting to do.  Most of the injection molded parts that I have seen are structurally very poor however.

Everything comes down to volume. My prices are high and will stay high as long as the volume of the product stays at the "niche" level.  The sad fact of the audio business is that sound quality really accounts for very little in terms of market share.  This keeps the volumes down for products which place sound quality at the very top of the priorities list, and the low volume keeps the prices high.

Coming from a mass production background (automotive) I know very well that in volume the costs would plummet - how much the prices could or would drop is a complex business decision.  But precisely like automotive, volume drives cost and hence price.  Do you really think that there is a 1/4 million dolars of material in a Ferrari?  No, its that the volume is low because the appeal is limited.

[JohnR]

I've noticed that the speakers using "waveguide technology" like Gedlee, SP Technology, and a few others are pretty costly.  From everything I've read, they are also very good.

Do you think we'll see more companies using waveguides, and do you think the cost will lessen over time? 

Roy - pardon me if I read more into your post than I should, but you've been around long enough to see the "bust-boom" cycle of various speaker topologies, have you not? There's always the "latest greatest thing" on the forums... remember that and take a step back and think about what your own goals with regard to home audio reproduction are. Or, to put it another way (perhaps), rather than think about how expensive this (or any other technology) might be, think and learn about what the specific advantages/disadvantages of that approach/technology are.

[rich121]

Curious if you built the speakers you posted about below? Sounds very interesting and would like to know how they sound?

Rick

My process is hand pooring with room temperature curing.  This is quite an expensvie way to go but has the lowest tooling costs and can be done in small batches in small places.  Injection molding is only a fraction of the piece cost, but with enormously high tooling and requires a large scale factory setting to do.  Most of the injection molded parts that I have seen are structurally very poor however.

Everything comes down to volume. My prices are high and will stay high as long as the volume of the product stays at the "niche" level.  The sad fact of the audio business is that sound quality really accounts for very little in terms of market share.  This keeps the volumes down for products which place sound quality at the very top of the priorities list, and the low volume keeps the prices high.

Coming from a mass production background (automotive) I know very well that in volume the costs would plummet - how much the prices could or would drop is a complex business decision.  But precisely like automotive, volume drives cost and hence price.  Do you really think that there is a 1/4 million dolars of material in a Ferrari?  No, its that the volume is low because the appeal is limited.