[KnowTalent]

James,

Do you have a curve or at least a few data points that relate the BP26's SNR to volume settings...both (and/or) o'clock position and db attenuation/boost?

[werd]

James,

Do you have a curve or at least a few data points that relate the BP26's SNR to volume settings...both (and/or) o'clock position and db attenuation/boost?

Hi Kt

Don't take this the wrong way and i am not picking at you. But i find it interesting that you are asking questions about SNR and yet you dismiss the use of aftermarket PC's. You are  interested in noise ( ) and yet you have no respect for PC's that are built to reject noise. Some of them being expensive and some which are not. I am not sure i follow your logic.

[KnowTalent]

Hi Kt

Don't take this the wrong way and i am not picking at you. But i find it interesting that you are asking questions about SNR and yet you dismiss the use of aftermarket PC's. You are  interested in noise ( ) and yet you have no respect for PC's that are built to reject noise. Some of them being expensive and some which are not. I am not sure i follow your logic.

The reason I don't pay much attention to the cable hype is many fold.

First, I have enough friends who hold electrical engineering degrees and one, especially, who runs his own electronics repair business, holding several tech repair certs from the likes of Panasonic/Mashusita, Yamaha, McIntosh, etc... all these people tell me the vast majority of arguments are total BS from an engineering standpoint.

Second, most respected in-house engineering-based manufacturers such as Bryston, Boulder, McIntosh, etc...have power supplies that filter out any of the garbage that comes across the line so the idea that some passive 3-6' piece of wire is going to make a tinkers damn difference is laughable. Sure, there are rational arguments for surge protection and such... but the passive filtering effects of ANY PC, as related to benefiting a propelry designed power supply, is pure BS from an engineering standpoint.

Third, spend some time doing historical research on the home audio industry and the onset of the cable market.  Whether PC, speaker, IC...there are people who have forgotten more than most of us will ever know (regarding applied engineering principles and theoretical physics) who evaluated all the claims coming from the emerging cable market and determined the quasi-scientific babble to be misleading in that of the true statements/claims being made, they were under frequency/voltage conditions that simply do not apply to home audio circuits.

Call me crazy but I'll place my faith in the judgements of this group every time and chalk the counter arguments up to the many (...and often uncontrolled) variables that affect our ability to hear and make definitive judgements as to what sounds "better" or "different". 

[werd]

The reason I don't pay much attention to the cable hype is many fold.

First, I have enough friends who hold electrical engineering degrees and one, especially, who runs his own electronics repair business, holding several tech repair certs from the likes of Panasonic/Mashusita, Yamaha, McIntosh, etc... all these people tell me the vast majority of arguments are total BS from an engineering standpoint.

Second, most respected in-house engineering-based manufacturers such as Bryston, Boulder, McIntosh, etc...have power supplies that filter out any of the garbage that comes across the line so the idea that some passive 3-6' piece of wire is going to make a tinkers damn difference is laughable. Sure, there are rational arguments for surge protection and such... but the passive filtering effects of ANY PC, as related to benefiting a propelry designed power supply, is pure BS from an engineering standpoint.

Third, spend some time doing historical research on the home audio industry and the onset of the cable market.  Whether PC, speaker, IC...there are people who have forgotten more than most of us will ever know (regarding applied engineering principles and theoretical physics) who evaluated all the claims coming from the emerging cable market and determined the quasi-scientific babble to be misleading in that of the true statements/claims being made, they were under frequency/voltage conditions that simply do not apply to home audio circuits.

Call me crazy but I'll place my faith in the judgements of this group every time and chalk the counter arguments up to the many (...and often uncontrolled) variables that affect our ability to hear and make definitive judgements as to what sounds "better" or "different". 

I love the Electrical engineering comebacks. I have experience with electrical engineers too . I happen to know one of the most successful electrical engineers in western Canada, The company he owns is worth billions. His designed and manufacturers mobile wireless internets modems and started doing so in the late 90's. He spent most of his time in Eastern Europe testing and building wireless internet that is used today. Extremely intelligent in his field.

The funny thing about him is that he had no clue that they still used tubes in audio gear until i mentioned it to him. And why would he. He has no interest in audio and EE is a vast field. It was funny but more of an eye opener to the text book answers you can get from EE. Thats what you get are text book answers. They have not clue what things sound like.....

One thing he did talk about was how important cable shielding is for  signal delivery. And that is a very text book answer also. So if your are stating that the stock cables are good enough for power and shield then go ahead  use them. But i use my ears and hear a diff so i like them. 

I just don't get it because you are completely on the right track as far questions about noise and yet you discard products that are engineered, some better than others, for noise rejection.

[James Tanner]

James,

Do you have a curve or at least a few data points that relate the BP26's SNR to volume settings...both (and/or) o'clock position and db attenuation/boost?

I will ask.

james

[KnowTalent]

I love the Electrical engineering comebacks. I have experience with electrical engineers too . I happen to know one of the most successful electrical engineers in western Canada, The company he owns is worth billions. His designed and manufacturers mobile wireless internets modems and started doing so in the late 90's. He spent most of his time in Eastern Europe testing and building wireless internet that is used today. Extremely intelligent in his field.

The funny thing about him is that he had no clue that they still used tubes in audio gear until i mentioned it to him. And why would he. He has no interest in audio and EE is a vast field. It was funny but more of an eye opener to the text book answers you can get from EE. Thats what you get are text book answers. They have not clue what things sound like.....

One thing he did talk about was how important cable shielding is for  signal delivery. And that is a very text book answer also. So if your are stating that the stock cables are good enough for power and shield then go ahead  use them. But i use my ears and hear a diff so i like them. 

I just don't get it because you are completely on the right track as far questions about noise and yet you discard products that are engineered, some better than others, for noise rejection.

Yes, I absolutely agree with what you say about the EE field being broad and if you're not directly involved in audio circuit and/or power supply design there are certainly going to be areas where the degree is too general and will not help you out.

...BUT

The people who I am referring to are involved in audio repair, DIY audio, recording engineers and yes...even reading the outlandish rants of some old timer audiophiles like Gordon Gow from McIntosh.
Godron saw the cable market for what is was...read his research on the matter and try to develop counterarguments.

Yes, I also agree that shielding, strand winding techniques and such can effect properties and even mess with frequency response but I would argue in general not to the same "measureable" AND "audible" degree something like heavy attenuation of a line source voltage affects SNR...up to as much as a 30db loss in SNR in some cases.

Which do you think is "most" audilble?

a -110db SNR vs. a -80db SNR preamp rating?

the difference between two well terminated/shielded AC cords, one 12 ga copper vs.the other made of silver gauge to equal the resistance of the copper?

...or let's get crazy...the line noise rejection of the filter section of a well designed power supply vs. that of 3' of "magic" wire?

As I said already, a well designed power supply is better suited (vs. cable) to filter out the line gubblins...I think Bryston says this in so many words in some of their tech white papers.
Unfortunately these days not many credible audio manufacturers will dispute cable claims that are clearly erroneous at best because either they have joined the game themselves or do not want to rock the boat with potential vendors who sell such.  McIntosh was another powerhouse who at first said blah, then began defering opinion when they realized the spell the cable marketing had cast over the masses.

Again, imo and experience, if changing an AC cord makes that noticeable of a difference then it's most likely due to factors such as inadequate termination, inadequate guage for current flow demand, inadequatately designed power supply filtering, etc... 

As for shielding, how may belden, velox, etc.... commercial grade ac cords do you see without some sort of shielding?

my opinion remains that in absence of measureable difference in output response....whether it be THD, SNR, IMD, etc... any low level audible differences are more likely due to variation in your hearing OR placebo effect.
If you could provide a measureable difference in some universally agreed upon spec, or better yet develop a new measurement spec! ...then you'll be on to something   you'd be a gazillionare 

I know you like to argue this stuff and I do too but let's stay focused on getting a SNR chart and see if Bryston will give us a peek behind the curtain

[werd]

Ok Kt

I only argue this stuff because i want people to hear what i hear and its awesome.. 

Out of respect i went down and did a comparison between Bryston's stock cable and my gutwire powerclef2. I used a song off Radioheads Rainbow. Song 7 titled Reckoner.

The rhythm is nicely seated in both left and right speakers. They use nice cymbal and snare work to keep pace. The stereo image in the middle is where you find the vocals and all syntheziser fillers.

The gutwire gives the percussion lots of air and and excellent resolution. You hear dynamics and cymbals work and snare stays in each channel but has a nice almost brush sound to it. Its all very clear. The cymbal work never gets in the stereo, its all left or right. The voice in the stereo image is seperate from the sythesizer filler and you can hear his voice layer and crescendo over the fillers.

At about 1:30 in the song there is a change in recording. The song seems to go from a more relax sound into a forward moving upfront change. Its very distinct and an excellent transition.

Ok i have  listened to that recording a lot lately. I went and put my orig stock 14B cable provided in the box by Bryston.

The original cymbal work was still there and were no digital nasties. But the cymbals, snares had meshed and lost it's lustre. Pronunciation of cymbals were diminished lots. All left, right and center channels were still independed but it felt closed in.  The voice and filler sounds in the stereo image had lost a lot of its independent dynamics. It was like everything moved as one. Actually almost a complete smear.

At the 1:30 mark the change in the recording felt like no change at all. It was non engaging movement,  unlike the with the gutwire.

This is just a one song with one cable change.....

I am not dreaming this stuff up. Its all there, just listen for yourself......

[KnowTalent]

Ok Kt

I only argue this stuff because i want people to hear what i hear and its awesome.. 

Out of respect i went down and did a comparison between Bryston's stock cable and my gutwire powerclef2. I used a song off Radioheads Rainbow. Song 7 titled Reckoner.

What are the length and gauges of the two cords? If there are substantial differences in resistance then sure I could buy that the wire with higher resistance "might" be restricting current flow to a point where are measureable voltage rail swings that could effect output to the point where something can be heard...but if this is the case then it is more likely that the cap rating or something else in the Bryston power supply is amiss and not due to line filtering effects imposed by a short run of wire.

The rhythm is nicely seated in both left and right speakers. They use nice cymbal and snare work to keep pace. The stereo image in the middle is where you find the vocals and all syntheziser fillers.

The gutwire gives the percussion lots of air and and excellent resolution. You hear dynamics and cymbals work and snare stays in each channel but has a nice almost brush sound to it. Its all very clear. The cymbal work never gets in the stereo, its all left or right. The voice in the stereo image is seperate from the sythesizer filler and you can his voice layer and crescendo over the fillers.

At about 1:30 in the song there is a change in recording. The song seems to go from a more relax sound into a forward moving upfront change. Its very distinct and an excellent transition.

Ok i have  listened to that recording a lot lately. I went and put my orig stock 14B cable provided in the box by Bryston.

The original cymbal work was still there and were no digital nasties. But the cymbals, snares had meshed and lost it's lustre. Pronunciation of cymbals were diminished lots. All left, right and center channels were still independed but it felt closed in.  The voice and filler sounds in the stereo image had lost a lot of its independent dynamics. It was like everything moved as one. Actually almost a complete smear.

At the 1:30 mark the change in the recording felt like no change at all. It was non engaging movement,  unlike the with the gutwire.

This is just a one song with one cable change.....

I am not dreaming this stuff up. Its all there, just listen for yourself......

werd,

I am not trying to say you aren't hearing a difference, rather I'm questioning what is the cause of the difference you hear.  If you know which cable you are connecting you are biasing the trial and therefore in absence of any "measureable" differences in output neither of us can say definitively what you hear is due to cable filtering properties or simply the fact that your bias toward subjective judgements makes you more open to hearing a difference.  Maybe there's something wrong with the power supply filtering in your amp? see my comments in the above body of text.

I may be totally wrong as there could be some sort of measurement out there that no one has yet discovered but until then I digress and say more "filtered" power to you  
I too used to think I heard subtile differences until I actually started talking to people with credible audio engineering backgrounds. Since then I have revisited a few A/B and a few DBT tests and I am much less confident in saying I heard a difference worth mentioning, if any at all.
In fact my new found opinions led me to sell off all my boutique AC cords and purchase cheaper models and more music!!!

And yes, my interaction with the engineering types, reinforced by my engineering background, definately biases my opinion to the objective camp and therefore biases my judgement regarding what I hear....or don't. 

Which would you rather have?

A volume control that generates a ruler flat -100db SNR?

OR

The AC powercord of your choice, regardless of price, after spending infinite hours doing A/B testing, DBT, etc... ?


As far as your review and eagerness to share what you hear...I'd rather you share what you're drinking as the review sounds much like something out of wine spectator! 

[skunark]

Did you burn-in the cable   

[KnowTalent]

Did you burn-in the cable   

don't encourage him! 

I am waiting on Sir James to return with Volume Taper specs that will enlighten us all! 

[KnowTalent]

James,

Do you have a curve or at least a few data points that relate the BP26's SNR to volume settings...both (and/or) o'clock position and db attenuation/boost?

In the meantime here is a link of interest regarding volume control implementations

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/discuss/feedback/newsletter/2009/07/2/volume-control-technologies

[werd]

werd,

I am not trying to say you aren't hearing a difference, rather I'm questioning what is the cause of the difference you hear.  If you know which cable you are connecting you are biasing the trial and therefore in absence of any "measureable" differences in output neither of us can say definitively what you hear is due to cable filtering properties or simply the fact that your bias toward subjective judgements makes you more open to hearing a difference. Maybe there's something wrong with the power supply filtering in your amp? see my comments in the above body of text.

I may be totally wrong as there could be some sort of measurement out there that no one has yet discovered but until then I digress and say more "filtered" power to you  
I too used to think I heard subtile differences until I actually started talking to people with credible audio engineering backgrounds. Since then I have revisited a few A/B and a few DBT tests and I am much less confident in saying I heard a difference worth mentioning, if any at all.
In fact my new found opinions led me to sell off all my boutique AC cords and purchase cheaper models and more music!!!

And yes, my interaction with the engineering types, reinforced by my engineering background, definately biases my opinion to the objective camp and therefore biases my judgement regarding what I hear....or don't. 

Which would you rather have?

A volume control that generates a ruler flat -100db SNR?

OR

The AC powercord of your choice, regardless of price, after spending infinite hours doing A/B testing, DBT, etc... ?


As far as your review and eagerness to share what you hear...I'd rather you share what you're drinking as the review sounds much like something out of wine spectator! 

Hello

The differences are far from subtle. I have spent years in front of my system. I am quite able to tell the difference of any changes i do. All these biases i keep hearing  resulting from equipment changes like cognitive dissonance are pure amateur. Yes it does exist but its for those that are new into the hobby. I had the same conversation with a Mr Salk about people's ability (or inability) to hear into their own system. He tried to tell me that  changes are just not there in cabling. Only result of a people's inability to discern what it is real and what is psychologically manifested. Thats pure nonsense and my  response is i  asked him to  quit telling people that there are psychological barriers (like cognitive dissonance)that they will never get over, this kind of stuff is horrible for the hobby.

I gave you good testimony of the difference. Your ears are the best measuring gear you can have. Learn to use them and your system will sound great.... thats a big  .

[Napalm]

Did you burn-in the cable   

Don't neglect cryo either. And spoon it at night so it would feel your love. Only then it would give its best.

Nap. 

[Laundrew]

 

If an individual “hears” a perceived difference with their new acquisition, but in all actuality no improvement in audio quality occurred - did the purchase still not have a desired benefit for the user?

                            Totus en mens   

I am not suggesting this with respect to this particular thread but as a general observation.

Be well…

[rave959]

The reason I don't pay much attention to the cable hype is many fold.

First, I have enough friends who hold electrical engineering degrees and one, especially, who runs his own electronics repair business, holding several tech repair certs from the likes of Panasonic/Mashusita, Yamaha, McIntosh, etc... all these people tell me the vast majority of arguments are total BS from an engineering standpoint.

Second, most respected in-house engineering-based manufacturers such as Bryston, Boulder, McIntosh, etc...have power supplies that filter out any of the garbage that comes across the line so the idea that some passive 3-6' piece of wire is going to make a tinkers damn difference is laughable. Sure, there are rational arguments for surge protection and such... but the passive filtering effects of ANY PC, as related to benefiting a propelry designed power supply, is pure BS from an engineering standpoint.

Third, spend some time doing historical research on the home audio industry and the onset of the cable market.  Whether PC, speaker, IC...there are people who have forgotten more than most of us will ever know (regarding applied engineering principles and theoretical physics) who evaluated all the claims coming from the emerging cable market and determined the quasi-scientific babble to be misleading in that of the true statements/claims being made, they were under frequency/voltage conditions that simply do not apply to home audio circuits.

Call me crazy but I'll place my faith in the judgements of this group every time and chalk the counter arguments up to the many (...and often uncontrolled) variables that affect our ability to hear and make definitive judgements as to what sounds "better" or "different". 

Awesome post, KT!  I'm listening to music right now with great cables and - oh wait, I forgot to put the cable "risers"!!!  I'm sure my speakers will have better sense of depth and PRAT -TAT-TATATATAT!!!   

I better go get my ears checked, too - to see if my hearing is worthy for all these wonderful cables... don't wanna miss that littlest sparkle of sound!


Peace and happy listening!

[Napalm]

If an individual “hears” a perceived difference with their new acquisition, but in all actuality no improvement in audio quality occurred - did the purchase still not have a desired benefit for the user?

Recommended reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave

If we admit that reality is not what it is, but what we perceive it to be, then we can understand why some people would like to ban measurements as an alternative form of perception. Without them, you can arrange for a particular, self-serving perception/observation and state whatever you want about the object of your study (and this is exactly how some audiophile mags work).

Nap.

[werd]

Don't neglect cryo either. And spoon it at night so it would feel your love. Only then it would give its best.

Nap. 

Actually i am no longer into cryo these days. But that is my own taste since i don't like them plugged into my Torus.  Don't like the way they sound, i know i am such a fool.

[werd]

Recommended reading:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegory_of_the_cave

If we admit that reality is not what it is, but what we perceive it to be, then we can understand why some people would like to ban measurements as an alternative form of perception. Without them, you can arrange for a particular, self-serving perception/observation and state whatever you want about the object of your study (and this is exactly how some audiophile mags work).

Nap.

One of the best posts i have read on this site, Its by Danny from GR research. I see no reason why cabling is any different. It demonstrates that measurements do not always tell us how things sound.

"Not unconfirmed or un-researched. The complete opposite.

Let's take a simple capacitor.

Do you think these companies just wind these things up and charge what the market will bare in accordance to their marketing?

I am what you'd think of as in industry insider. I get privy to some interesting manufacturing insights.

I can tell you that there are cap manufactures that will make many variations of the same cap and then listen to it in various applications to see what the differences are. Variations can include the thickness of the conductive material, how it is sprayed on or rolled, tightness of the winding, thickness of the dielectric material, length of the cap verses the diameter, how the end leads are terminated, termination material, wire type, coatings, type of dielectric material, type of film, etc.

And I have cap manufacturers send me samples all the time for my feedback.

I had one cap manufacturer send me three samples of the same cap and the only difference was the coating. One had a poly coating and was completely dipped and sealed. One had a poly coating just as a wrapper, but the ends were open, and one was completely open and was just wrapped in what looked like tissue paper. Each one of them sounded different. "


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[skunark]

Don't neglect cryo either. And spoon it at night so it would feel your love. Only then it would give its best.

Nap. 

Where's my demagnetization apparatus.   

[BrysTony]

Where's my demagnetization apparatus.   

Just use your CD Stoplight green pen!!