A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic. Read 49051 times.

marvda1

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1870
  • freelance reviewer: The Sound Advocate
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #60 on: 25 Jul 2010, 02:49 pm »
Why is it that when it comes to the sense of hearing in audio we have to make it so complicated?  Is the sense of hearing any more complicated than say the sense of taste?  Cook two pound cakes with identical ingredients except one uses real butter and the other margarine, taste them, you either like one or the other better or you can't taste a difference.  Do we have to be blind folded or take the other senses out of the equation?  Sometimes we make something so complicated that in the end is it even worth the effort?
Just my opinion.   :eyebrows:

Hope I don't get blasted. :lol:

kingdeezie

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 987
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #61 on: 25 Jul 2010, 03:28 pm »
I agree.

I am not as technically inclined as a lot of the people that post on audiocircle here, but I don't understand why people are trying to turn art into science.

Outside of measurements and graphs, there still is the human factor. Music is personal and subjective, and so is the equipment which we use to reproduce it.

No amount of testing can disprove what a person hears and enjoys out of their equipment.


Hugh

  • Industry Participant
  • Posts: 1329
    • Angel City Audio
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #62 on: 25 Jul 2010, 03:40 pm »
Marvin,

Good morning.

What if someone tried the margarine one and believed it's butter and vice versa?

How do we go about prove to him/her that he/she was misled by his/her taste? :)
Why is it that when it comes to the sense of hearing in audio we have to make it so complicated?  Is the sense of hearing any more complicated than say the sense of taste?  Cook two pound cakes with identical ingredients except one uses real butter and the other margarine, taste them, you either like one or the other better or you can't taste a difference.  Do we have to be blind folded or take the other senses out of the equation?  Sometimes we make something so complicated that in the end is it even worth the effort?
Just my opinion.   :eyebrows:

Hope I don't get blasted. :lol:

marvda1

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 1870
  • freelance reviewer: The Sound Advocate
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #63 on: 25 Jul 2010, 03:52 pm »
Then this person saved a little money and he's happy :lol:  Some like Heineken and some like Milwaukee's Best   :lol:  both guys in the end get to the same result  :drool:

DanTheMan

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 420
    • DanTheMan's blabber
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #64 on: 25 Jul 2010, 04:48 pm »
Okay, why is that Dan?

Second question: What is the difference in how they sound?

Third: How much time is on each pair.
1) good question.  I wish I had the answer.  Could be many number of things and to track the variables would be time consuming.

2) You know I hate giving subjective impressions.  Whatever terminology I use to describe what I hear will mean different things to different people.  Legibility does not equal communication. 

3) that's another good question.  I have not kept any tally.

Someone mentioned turning art into science.  To me it's sciences, acoustics, electronics, and psychoacoustics with the later being the most important.  All things audio should be built to what science dictates IMO and to some degree they necessarily have to be.  The boutique side of things pushed science into an art--which does have its benefit.  Many artists have had useful insight into the future of the sciences.  What did Einstein say about imagination?  To me I'm thankful when some of these companies actually start doing some science.  That's a big bravo to Clarity Cap.  If I were to buy a cap now for an uber speaker, it would be Clarity.  Of course, reading the actual submitted paper would give us a lot more insight into the magnitude of the implications.  The other thing we could do is actually carry out the test we have described.  People make some pretty grandiose claims--and it should be for a $40-$200 cap and readily audible.  You can by a nice tweeter for a lot less.  In this speaker, you've more than doubled the cost of it just by replacing the caps!  Ouch.  I know, to many people in the hobby, value be damned.

The problems I see, as far as perfecting sound reproduction is concerned, is that there is a lot of research that would be nice to have that has never been done. The other is that people refuse to concede to the validity of what has been meaningfully demonstrated and refute it without well-grounded evidence. What a cantankerous conundrum! After every SONAR equipped submersible deployed returns with nothing, some people will still search for Nessie. Hopefully one will at least find some diamonds that cut glass.

It's much easier to complain about what is (or not) than to actually do something about it. We have an opportunity to do something now.

Thanks,

Dan

Danny Richie

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #65 on: 25 Jul 2010, 05:21 pm »
Quote
2) You know I hate giving subjective impressions.  Whatever terminology I use to describe what I hear will mean different things to different people.  Legibility does not equal communication. 

It doesn't matter what terminology you use to describe the differences. It doesn't matter what other people think either.

You said,

Quote
"Side by side, there's a difference between the 2 pairs I have."

They are just alike internally aren't they?

Do you think that you might be psychologically tricking yourself into thinking one pair sounds better than the other? Are you just fooling yourself?

Personally I see no motivation for you to want to perceive a difference. So I see no reason why you would make it up.

I think you should figure out what it is.

What if you play the newest pair a bunch, and after a bunch of time, they magically then sound the same?

Then what are you to think?

kingdeezie

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 987
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #66 on: 25 Jul 2010, 05:56 pm »
1) good question.  I wish I had the answer.  Could be many number of things and to track the variables would be time consuming.

2) You know I hate giving subjective impressions.  Whatever terminology I use to describe what I hear will mean different things to different people.  Legibility does not equal communication. 

3) that's another good question.  I have not kept any tally.

Someone mentioned turning art into science.  To me it's sciences, acoustics, electronics, and psychoacoustics with the later being the most important.  All things audio should be built to what science dictates IMO and to some degree they necessarily have to be.  The boutique side of things pushed science into an art--which does have its benefit.  Many artists have had useful insight into the future of the sciences.  What did Einstein say about imagination?  To me I'm thankful when some of these companies actually start doing some science.  That's a big bravo to Clarity Cap.  If I were to buy a cap now for an uber speaker, it would be Clarity.  Of course, reading the actual submitted paper would give us a lot more insight into the magnitude of the implications.  The other thing we could do is actually carry out the test we have described.  People make some pretty grandiose claims--and it should be for a $40-$200 cap and readily audible.  You can by a nice tweeter for a lot less.  In this speaker, you've more than doubled the cost of it just by replacing the caps!  Ouch.  I know, to many people in the hobby, value be damned.

The problems I see, as far as perfecting sound reproduction is concerned, is that there is a lot of research that would be nice to have that has never been done. The other is that people refuse to concede to the validity of what has been meaningfully demonstrated and refute it without well-grounded evidence. What a cantankerous conundrum! After every SONAR equipped submersible deployed returns with nothing, some people will still search for Nessie. Hopefully one will at least find some diamonds that cut glass.

It's much easier to complain about what is (or not) than to actually do something about it. We have an opportunity to do something now.

Thanks,

Dan

I agree with some of the things you have said here. I was the one that mentioned turning art into science.

The problem in my eyes, and in my limited technical experience, is where are the tools to measure ALL of the intricacies of music?

I know that you can measure frequency response, THD, wattage, noise, etc, etc; but don't these things just define the borders and not the entire picture?

What measures tonality, sound staging,  spatial information, transient response, dynamics, etc, etc?

I think that evidenced based practice can be a valuable tool, and is very pertinent in objective cases where varying opinions do not effect the outcomes.

However, my point about art, is that music, and the reproduction of it, are so deeply seeded in subjectivity based on the nature of music itself, how can you hope to be able to objectively measure on a consistent basis what is true and untrue?


DanTheMan

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 420
    • DanTheMan's blabber
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #67 on: 25 Jul 2010, 05:58 pm »
It doesn't matter what terminology you use to describe the differences. It doesn't matter what other people think either.

That's why I see no point in the question or answering it.

You said,

They are just alike internally aren't they?

Do you think that you might be psychologically tricking yourself into thinking one pair sounds better than the other? Are you just fooling yourself?

Personally I see no motivation for you to want to perceive a difference. So I see no reason why you would make it up.

I think you should figure out what it is.

What if you play the newest pair a bunch, and after a bunch of time, they magically then sound the same?

Then what are you to think?
They are similar.  I never said one sounds better.  I could be just fooling myself.  They're both the same age and I don't know which has gotten more play time.  I don't believe in magic.  They are 2 different pairs of speakers that don't graph the same.  It seems that's probably the answer.  If the output is different, the speaker should sound different.  There's a ton of studies on that, but really it seems intuitively obvious.  If it's emitting a different sound, I wouldn't expect them to sound the same. 

Dan

bunnyma357

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #68 on: 25 Jul 2010, 06:26 pm »
Dan,

A little off topic - just a general question on how you correlate measurements to real world usage, as it is something that I find troublesome with standardized measurements. In the quest to measure everything under the same conditions,  how does one account for specific design considerations that may be built into a speaker.

As an example a designer may design their speaker to be placed against a wall or in a corner and recommend the appropriate placement - as a result they will test poorly in an anechoic chamber. Another speaker may test perfectly flat in the chamber, but have more pronounced deviations when placed near a wall. It seems to me design decisions like this are quite important, and that in this instance the testing would indicate the incorrect speaker, if you intended on placing it against a wall.

Should testing take into account how the designer has intended for their speaker to be used?

Jim C



DanTheMan

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 420
    • DanTheMan's blabber
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #69 on: 25 Jul 2010, 07:40 pm »
I agree with some of the things you have said here. I was the one that mentioned turning art into science.
It was a good post as is this one.

The problem in my eyes, and in my limited technical experience, is where are the tools to measure ALL of the intricacies of music?
Measuring music does not lie in the gear used to record or reproduce the recording.  That's a whole other discussion, but truly something that many people get confused with the gear of music playback.  Once you are involved with the recording process, a whole new perspective takes place.  Measuring art is an interesting idea best left in the Ivy leagues.
I know that you can measure frequency response, THD, wattage, noise, etc, etc; but don't these things just define the borders and not the entire picture?
There is much that can be measured, but there are a few that are extremely difficult that you mention next.  Correlation of subjectivities relationship to the metrics is best left to psychoacoustic research.  The unfortunate part is that the audiophile's vernacular isn't consistent and it creates difficulty b/c of the various interpretations.  It really would be best if people read the research on the topic.  There's no way I can sum all the research available into a post, and I certainly don't know it all.
What measures tonality, sound staging,  spatial information, transient response, dynamics, etc, etc?
Keep in mind, this is not my profession and even among professionals much of this is debated b/c the definitions are not pinned down.  It's a very subjective thing that you're asking for and thus difficult to create a single metric for.  This may well bring on more flames(which is ridiculous behavior especially for grown adults), but what the hell, I'm in the mood to write in hopes to stimulate some thought.  Keep in mind, this is not all inclusive and some of what you are asking has no direct metric--obviously or we would have a metric named "sound staging, spacial Information, etc..."  This is a subject that could be discussed for days and days because lets face it, it's subjective.  Anyway, here's my attempt to summarize what I think.

Tonality can be looked at from many different metrics, but basically a polar response and impulse response will tell you what you need to know.  Some people would argue for phase as well, but the science refutes that claim. 
Look here for a good explanation what tonality is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonality
and you'll realize this is a music term, not a playback term.  That said, wild polar responses will not have good tonality unless they somehow match the inaccuracies of the recording process--fat chance.  If it does on one, it won't on any other.  The recording process has as much to do with this as the playback.  That's part of the reason why getting a polar response on a speaker is more useful than going and listening to your few favorite tracks.  Rise time and Decay should also play a part and can be seen by looking at the impulse graph, CSD, wavelet, etc...  With the impulse(s) and a polar plot, you'll have all that info.

What most people seem to describe as soundstage as far as I know mostly has to do with speaker placement and polar response.  If you are shooting an even sound across your room and your room and your speakers are placed with the left on the left and the right on the right, away from the walls toed in, I can't see where you could go wrong.  A narrow directivity should give you a better image where a wider, a better sense of space.

Spatial info is another one of those touchy definitions.  To me that's mostly in low level detail resolution if you're talking about what's actually contained in the recording.  IOW if you want to hear the recording environment as picked up by the microphone and diluted or enhances through the process of production.  Which means anything that interferes with that can have an impact.  So from the loudspeaker standpoint, impulse, cabinet accelerometer CSD, now it even looks like capacitor vibration(so there may well be credence to more tweaks like God forbid, cables!  Nothing has turned up there yet that I know of), and polar response will play into everything.  There are many things that can effect the low level resolution.  I'd bet to some degree you can trace this all the way back to the source.  This may be the most expensive, difficult and time consuming part to get to the "N"th degree. 

Transient response is another one of those CSD, Wavelet, Impulse, polar.  It's just rise time and decay.  A CSD or Wavelet don't tell us a whole lot without the impulse response--ever really that I can think of.

Dynamics is another interesting topic that depends on wether you are talking physical or psychophysical.  The best way to look at this graphically would go back to everything mentioned for transients, then also thermal capacity, power compression and efficiency.

Etc, etc... I know, no publisher of specs is giving you this information, so knowing how to use it or think of it is of little use.  In the end we are all left to guess.  I wonder if informed guessing is better than uninformed.  I bet anyone schooled in the issues at hand could do much better than I.  Every time I read something new, I learn more and I'm betting any recording engineer, acoustician, transducer engineer, etc... could do a much better job than I just did. 

I think that evidenced based practice can be a valuable tool, and is very pertinent in objective cases where varying opinions do not effect the outcomes.
What are you, a doctor?  :lol: (that's a friendly joke based on that statement people) That's the nice thing about Psychacoustics.  It gives us evidence from which to base our practice that's far more reliable than our non static subjectivity.
 
However, my point about art, is that music, and the reproduction of it, are so deeply seeded in subjectivity based on the nature of music itself, how can you hope to be able to objectively measure on a consistent basis what is true and untrue?
  We really aren't trying to measure the music and that's where the majority of audiophiles get the most confused.  We can measure a Picasso by the size of the painting, the array and tint of the palette, the size of the brushstrokes, etc...  but that still tells us little about the impact of the painting on our lives.  It may well have more impact if its viewed in better light.   I like the music I like on any system, but more on my main system.

Nervously awaiting refutation,

Dan

DanTheMan

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 420
    • DanTheMan's blabber
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #70 on: 25 Jul 2010, 07:49 pm »
Dan,

A little off topic - just a general question on how you correlate measurements to real world usage, as it is something that I find troublesome with standardized measurements. In the quest to measure everything under the same conditions,  how does one account for specific design considerations that may be built into a speaker.

As an example a designer may design their speaker to be placed against a wall or in a corner and recommend the appropriate placement - as a result they will test poorly in an anechoic chamber. Another speaker may test perfectly flat in the chamber, but have more pronounced deviations when placed near a wall. It seems to me design decisions like this are quite important, and that in this instance the testing would indicate the incorrect speaker, if you intended on placing it against a wall.

Should testing take into account how the designer has intended for their speaker to be used?

Jim C
Most definitely.  If a speaker has a less normal intended use, the normal testing will certainly have dubious qualifications.  Look at things like CBTs, corner horns and flooders.  I don't know what we would make of their anechoic responses or how they might correlate to subjective responses.  Most of you may not have heard of all of these these typologies and maybe never heard any of them.  I heard a Klipschorn once, not in a corner.  I'd bet it NEEDS the corner.  That's why there's so little research on them--they are uncommon.

Dan

kingdeezie

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 987
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #71 on: 25 Jul 2010, 08:00 pm »
 :thumb: Good post Dan.

All of it was very interesting to me.

Thanks.


DanTheMan

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 420
    • DanTheMan's blabber
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #72 on: 25 Jul 2010, 08:05 pm »
Thanks Kingdeezie!  You just made my day.  A few kind words can go a long, long way.

Dan

kingdeezie

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 987
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #73 on: 25 Jul 2010, 09:08 pm »
No problem Dan.

I personally am one of this audiophiles who believes cables, power cords, etc, etc make differences.

But exploring all sides of the coin and gaining information is always a good idea.

I love Danny's products, i own his ls speakers, so the results of this experiment should be fun.

DanTheMan

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 420
    • DanTheMan's blabber
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #74 on: 25 Jul 2010, 09:55 pm »
I've never been a "believer" so to speak--and my father is a minister. :o  I've heard differences in many things, then tried some SBTs on myself and wife that didn't pan out--and some that did.  That got me more interested in the subject of perception.  So I read up a bit on it.  The things that have been demonstrated time and time again to be readily audible and preferred are usually the things most ignored in the audiophile community.  That's where I started focussing my efforts--on the things that are demonstrated to be most readily audible with music.  Things that don't require special gear, test tones, or listener training and a subsequent cut.  The things so obvious, any fool can sit in a room and hear an improvement or declination.  Once I put my efforts there, things changed for the first time in a completely positive direction.  The $26 I spent on Dr. Toole's book was easily the best money I've spent on my system many fold.  Too bad it's like $40 something now.  Supply and demand I guess.  Another great bargain was sifting through the wife's make up drawer.  Check out the last page of the parent thread for that.

Dan 

Danny Richie

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #75 on: 26 Jul 2010, 02:08 am »
Quote
I wonder if informed guessing is better than uninformed.


That is exactly what I was thinking as I was reading through all of that. I think I saw some of both.

This one was my favorite.

Quote
Tonality can be looked at from many different metrics, but basically a polar response and impulse response will tell you what you need to know.


That one was right up there with you being able to know more about how a speaker sounds from its measurements than from going to a store and listening to it.

You can't tell the difference between two completely different instruments by looking at all the measured playback from a loudspeaker.

You are not completely off base though. The two things that you mentioned below are factors involved in sound stage, but we are just getting started.

Quote
What most people seem to describe as soundstage as far as I know mostly has to do with speaker placement and polar response.

No let's put some meat on some of this and see what we can learn.

You have been really big on polar responses. That's good. I am right with you there. The reason being is that we do not listen in an anechoic chamber and we do not listen to one speaker at a time. We hear the direct output from the speaker and what the room reflects back to us.

Ideally we want the reflected sound to somewhat mirror the direct sound with no peaks or dips. We also want to hear the reflected sound in such a way that it is perceived as a delayed reflection and not delayed to little as to be perceived as a time smear of the direct energy.

So which do you think is a bigger contributor to an even indirect sound pattern (all of the reflections) that create a room response? The off axis response of the speaker itself or the room?

Dan,

Let's answer that one this way. Rather than you telling me what you think the answer is, can you please show me how you answered that one by posting a picture or you listening room?

Something else to consider regarding room interaction and reflections. Lets say that the speaker is perfect in all regards and the off axis response is a perfect reflection of the on axis response. And we are listening to a female vocal being played back. We are perfectly set between the two speakers and the perfect time arrival to our ears from the two speakers places the vocalist right in front of us. This happens as the two speakers are playing the same signal, at the same time, in a perfectly balanced amplitude to create for us this illusion of perceiving the vocalist right in front of us.

Now, any time two speakers play the same thing, at the same time, and at the same amplitude, they are in phase at a point equal to both of them in distance. So half way between the two of them and they are in phase.

What do you think the room response will look like for that?

You see for every frequency there is a wavelength associated with that frequency. And if you have two sources playing the same thing, then if you move one of them away from the other, or you move closer to one verses the other in so much as to be a half of a wavelength away (in distance) at a given frequency or wavelength, then what you get is a cancellation effect. So all through the off axis response you get cancellation in some areas and peaks in others where the two wavelengths are in phase and out of phase.

So despite a perfect response (including off axis response in all directions) the room can and will often still reflect back to the listener a very non accurate reflection. And that is beside from the effects that the walls, ceiling, and floor may have altered these things on there own. 

Ever thought of that?

Quote
I personally am one of this audiophiles who believes cables, power cords, etc, etc make differences.

But exploring all sides of the coin and gaining information is always a good idea.

I love Danny's products, i own his ls speakers, so the results of this experiment should be fun.

kingdeezie,

There is a whole new world ahead of you. When you are ready and want to try some cables, power cords, etc, then let me know and I will send some things your way to try. Who can turn down a free demo?

PDR

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 820
  • May the best man win
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #76 on: 26 Jul 2010, 02:33 am »
Although I dont post much......I have been keeping tabs.....even before Danny started posting
I was reading with interest the "mans" thread. I will say this has been one of the most interesting threads I have ever read. This includes the interactions on the "other" circle.....I happen to own a bunch of their products.....and no....there is no comment.
This is one of those rare threads that make it worth while to come and see whats going on here 2-3 times a day.

I would liken this to buying an automobile......I could read all the stats, look at the reviews, and make a conclusion on what I want to drive simply by what the figures tell me.....
But until I actually drive it, stick my family in it, and see if "I" like it.....its just data.....

Thanks Danny

DanTheMan

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 420
    • DanTheMan's blabber
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #77 on: 26 Jul 2010, 02:36 am »
(((((Snip))))
Ever thought of that?
(((((snip)))))
Yes, and research has been done on this specific problem.  In summary, don't even fret about it.  Our brain had it figured out long before we thought about it.  If what you are worried about was worth worrying about, there would be no decent stereos.  You really got to read the research.  It would save a lot of conversation.

What do you figure was off about my attempt to explain tonality?  FWIW, I am interested in learning from you, but I don't care for posturing.  I'd ask you to bring evidence for you claim.  It certainly seems reasonable to me.  Your capacitor claim actually had evidence that you didn't have or couldn't Google.  I don't want to search to support your claims for you.

Dan

DanTheMan

  • Full Member
  • Posts: 420
    • DanTheMan's blabber
Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #78 on: 26 Jul 2010, 02:39 am »

(((((snip))))))
Dan,

Let's answer that one this way. Rather than you telling me what you think the answer is, can you please show me how you answered that one by posting a picture or you listening room?
(((((snip))))))
No point again.  Unless you can explain one.

Dan

Danny Richie

Re: A call to my customers in the SF Bay area.
« Reply #79 on: 26 Jul 2010, 02:48 am »
Thanks PDR. I hope the end result of what we are proposing results in as much interest as the discussion leading up to it.

Quote
Yes, and research has been done on this specific problem.  In summary, don't even fret about it.

Wait a second here. We aren't to fret about room reflections, but we are to be concerned with the off axis response of the speakers?

Quote
No point again.  Unless you can explain one.

Seeing a picture of your listening room helps me learn about you Dan. It tells me a great deal about what you put value in or not. Things like speaker placement, room treatments, whether or not you have cable risers on your cables (just kidding) or not...