[jaw5279]

I have been playing my dome version SongTowers for over two years with a Musical Fidelity A3.5 integrated amplifier using a Squeezebox Duet playing through a Channel Islands Audio VDA2 DAC as source for music only listening.

Given all of the recent communications surrounding the matching of the SongTowers with the Audio by Van Alstine Ultravalve amplifier, it has started me wondering if an upgrade would make much of a difference to my 55 year old ears. 

Several options present themselves......

1.  Use the MF 3.5A as a preamp and purchase an Ultravalve for amplification.

2.  Replace the MF 3.5A with AVA pre-amp (opinions on which one appreciated) & the Ultravalve.

3.  Just stay with the MF 3.5A. 

Having used only solid-state equipment in the past, I have little direct knowledge of tube equipment and associated sound differences.

Any thoughts or opinions?

Thanks,

John 

[floresjc]

jaw -

I'm not a tube owner, so I'm not going to steer you one way or the other. Lifetime solid state guy, who has all of Frank's solid state kit (preamp, dac, and amps). I've been messing around with the idea of an Ultravalve myself, seeing as it gets rave reviews with the SongTowers and would probably be a really nice first tube piece of gear for a noob like me.

If it was me, I'd look at getting an AVAStar hybrid preamp and the Ultravalve, but it depends on what kind of money you are looking at spending. If I could only get one, I'd get the amp and just run your integrated as a preamp.

[jsalk]

John -

This is a difficult question to answer, because it is impossible to know if you would prefer tube amplification.

Some people will simply not listen to solid state amplification.  Others will tell you that the silky smooth and musical sound of tube amplification is due, in part, to higher levels of distortion.  Distortion or not, the warmth of tubes can be quite alluring.

If you think you would like to try tube amplification with your SongTowers, the AVA UltraValve is hard to beat.  It is 35 watts which is plenty to drive the SongTowers.

You might ask why 35 tube watts are sufficient, but 35 solid state watts are not enough to drive the SongTowers.  The reason is the soft clipping nature of tubes.

Solid state amplification is very linear up to its maximum output.  If instantaneous transients drive solid state past its maximum output, it clips hard.  It basically hits a brick wall and the resulting clipping will sound harsh and brittle.

Tubes, on the other hand, are linear to a point and then the gain begins to fall off.  So when the input drives the amp toward its maximum output, it simply provides less gain.  It acts very much like an audio compressor - it is linear to a point and then simply rolls off, supplying less gain.

This is often referred to as "soft clipping" and is far less objectionable than "hard" solid state clipping.  The result is what some people would call silky smooth, warm and musical performance.

With AVA, you have a 30-day trial period.  So you can try an UltraValve amp using your MF 3.5A as a preamp.  If you like what you hear, you can consider upgrading to an AVA preamp as well.  If you are not all that impressed with the UltraValve and don't consider tubes an improvement over what you have, you can return it and you are only out shipping.

It would be hard to find a more synergistic relationship than an UltraValve coupled with a pair of SongTowers.  So if you want to experience the warm glow of tubes, you have little to lose and maybe much to gain.

Give Frank a call.  He will not steer you wrong.

- Jim

[cacophony777]

Sounds like you already have a nice front end! And from the "relative importance" thread I learned that it's mostly the speakers (and room acoustics) that matter (YMMV  ). So I would think that upgrading your speakers would be a far more cost effective way of improving your system. Or perhaps invest in room acoustics?

[floresjc]

Jim -

Will an Ultravalve work pretty well with HT2-TL's? Judging by the number of HT2 owners on the forums, I would think this would be one of the more popular pairings if the power level is appropriate.

cacophony -

I think the poster is really going for the tubes vs solid state question, rather than looking at a bump up in clarity or bass response by going from a SongTower to say an HT2-TL or an HT3. I believe an Ultravalve is $1600 roughly, and the HT2-TL's start at $4k.

[markie]

John, out of selfish curiousity, if you or anybody else here is looking for a little somethin' - somethin' to further tweak his system, I would love to know what an inexpensive cable called Anti-Cables would do for your sound. They are about $10 a foot. Here's one of dozens of testimonials from http://www.anticables.com

  "Paul, I am absolutely amazed. I got the Anti-Cables today. Brand new, out of the box, they outperform my Kimber 8tc's, MIT Terminator 2's, Audioquest Slates, and Audioquest Bedrocks by so far, it is almost an immeasurable difference. Who did you have to sell your soul to, in order to come up with this so simple, but perfect design. I can't wait to listen to the improvements (if possible) as they break in. This is the most remarkable, yet affordable change I have ever made to my system. No matter what I change in the future, your Anti-Cables will be first and foremost, the key to the ultimate performance. I must admit I had my doubt's, but I am now ready to sell my soul, for more of your products. Thank you very much for your devotion to the best reproduction of music possible. A customer for life."   

Absolute Sound also had a very favourable blurb on them.

If such inexpensive components do make such a notable difference in some systems I think it is worth knowing. I would like to know if Jim or Dennis of Frank have noticed appreciable differences between cables, given the revealing nature of the Salks.

Mark

[cacophony777]

I believe an Ultravalve is $1600 roughly, and the HT2-TL's start at $4k.

True, but if he upgraded the amp and preamp we're talking $3k+. The upgrade to HT2-TLs would only cost ~$2600 if he were to sell his Songtowers.

[avahifi]

My engineering judgment on high priced cables, interconnects, an all that other magic audio add on junk -- its snake oil.

If you pay more for cables and wires than you would have at Home Depot, you just screwed yourself.

Best regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[jsalk]

Jim -

Will an Ultravalve work pretty well with HT2-TL's? Judging by the number of HT2 owners on the forums, I would think this would be one of the more popular pairings if the power level is appropriate.

We ran HT2-TL's with the UltraValve at a couple of audio shows recently and the combination was quite good.  I have not had a chance to A/B them with solid state on material with deep bass.  As you know, deep bass requires a lot of power.  So a higher power solid state amp may have the edge in the bass department.  But what we did hear was very good indeed.

- Jim

[avahifi]

The Ultravalve amp is pretty much a minimum power choice for HT2 TL speakers.  I will be able to provide better advice on this when I get a new set of HT2s now on order from Jim.  I already own HT3s and Songtowers.

At the last trade show in Detroit, the Ultravalve sounded great with the HT2s, but in that huge room the HT2s did better yet on our 120 watt per channel Insight+ solid state amp.

If you have a reasonable room and are not inclined to play at fuse blowing levels (some of my clients blow 5 amp fuses routinely into the HT3s) then an Ultravalve may have all the power you need, and certainly amazing musiality.  If your tastes run to LOUDER, then a more powerful amplifier will suit your needs better.

Regards,
Frank Van Alstine

[floresjc]

True, but if he upgraded the amp and preamp we're talking $3k+. The upgrade to HT2-TLs would only cost ~$2600 if he were to sell his Songtowers.

Yes I know. I think he's wondering about the tube sound. Sure, he could skip the hybrid pre and the tube amp, and get HT2-TL's. But an HT2-TL, while a wonderful speaker, isn't going to have a tube sound to it and he's still out 3k. And in particular, the supreme musicality of the Ultravalve we keep hearing about is probably sticking there in his mind too

Certainly if he was looking to overhaul his system, HT2-TL's are a great speaker. But I think he's really looking to experiment with a tube sound and/or modify the front end rather than get rid of the SongTowers (which are great as well).

[floresjc]

You might ask why 35 tube watts are sufficient, but 35 solid state watts are not enough to drive the SongTowers.  The reason is the soft clipping nature of tubes.

Solid state amplification is very linear up to its maximum output.  If instantaneous transients drive solid state past its maximum output, it clips hard.  It basically hits a brick wall and the resulting clipping will sound harsh and brittle.

Tubes, on the other hand, are linear to a point and then the gain begins to fall off.  So when the input drives the amp toward its maximum output, it simply provides less gain.  It acts very much like an audio compressor - it is linear to a point and then simply rolls off, supplying less gain.

This is often referred to as "soft clipping" and is far less objectionable than "hard" solid state clipping.  The result is what some people would call silky smooth, warm and musical performance.

- Jim

Jim or Frank (or anybody in the know) -

This soft clipping nature of tubes, it can't be infinite can it? At some point you will go from linear gain to a non-linear roll off, and hit a zero gain state. Won't this zero gain state act like a solid state hard clip? A harsh sound? Or is this state so far into the power band, you'd never get there under extreme listening conditions? I'm kind of curious, you'd think that if you had a really high transient, you'd barrel through linear, past the rolloff and into a hard clip at some point.

[floresjc]

John, out of selfish curiousity, if you or anybody else here is looking for a little somethin' - somethin' to further tweak his system, I would love to know what an inexpensive cable called Anti-Cables would do for your sound. They are about $10 a foot. Here's one of dozens of testimonials from http://www.anticables.com

Absolute Sound also had a very favourable blurb on them.

If such inexpensive components do make such a notable difference in some systems I think it is worth knowing. I would like to know if Jim or Dennis of Frank have noticed appreciable differences between cables, given the revealing nature of the Salks.

Mark

I'm not Jim, Dennis or Frank, but I have SongTowers and HT2-TL's with AVA electronics and the SB that John has. I've had friends bring over components, including pricey cables, and there was no difference that we could tell. I use the made in America Belden 12 gauge that Blue Jeans Cable sells, but its like 47 cents a foot. A friend of mine uses Home depot 12/14 gauge, and a couple guys at work here have Monster. I've also had a pair of Kimber Cables on my HT2-TL's and while they are nice looking cables, I can't hear anything to justify the rise in price over 47 cents a foot for good solid wire. Cables would be the last thing I ever spent money on, if I had a million bucks then I'd have the best room, AVA electronics and Salk speakers, and then I'd think about some Kimber cables  or something for pizazz

[jaw5279]

Yes I know. I think he's wondering about the tube sound. Sure, he could skip the hybrid pre and the tube amp, and get HT2-TL's. But an HT2-TL, while a wonderful speaker, isn't going to have a tube sound to it and he's still out 3k. And in particular, the supreme musicality of the Ultravalve we keep hearing about is probably sticking there in his mind too

Certainly if he was looking to overhaul his system, HT2-TL's are a great speaker. But I think he's really looking to experiment with a tube sound and/or modify the front end rather than get rid of the SongTowers (which are great as well).

Wow, a lot of responses.....

I'll clarify (although I think floresjc has already pretty much read my mind). 

I am very happy with my SongTowers and am not really that interested in upgrading at this point (since I am currently at the limit of my available room space).  I'm not dissatisfied with the sound from my current setup but am always on the lookout for better.  I am curious to hear the "hot" setup since I already own 50% of the equation as well as desiring to experience "tube" sound.   

Although I am aware that AVA has a 30 day guarantee, I don't feel right ordering just to try and so am interested in what others have to say to be more certain of success if I decide to place an order.  That way, if I do feel the need to avail myself of the guarantee, it will be for the right reasons. 

thanks

John   

[avahifi]

If you just want to "try" an Ultravalve, don't worry about making us unhappy if you return it.  However, if you are sure it is just for a temporary tryout, we will supply one of my first generation prototypes that we won't mind if it gets a scuff or minor ding.  If you want to keep it, fine, or then you can exchange it for a brand new shiny one at no extra cost except for shipping.

Regards,

Frank Van Alstine

[Stercom]

You asked for opinions so here you go: Buy the Ultravalve! A good tube amp with the proper speaker can be magical.

[adydula]

jaw5279...

I couldnt be happier with my dome tweeter Songtowers with an Onkyo SR805 amp. I use an OPPO BD83SE with the Sabre dacs and also use a Squeezebox Touch with ALL 3 outs, digital coax, optical and 2 ch analog...all sound very nice.

After reading the Ultravalve article and always wanting to try a tube amp, I said what the heck at 61 yrs young who knows how long my hearing will last as it is now!! I am very critcial of what I listen to ...at this age you dont want to waste your time on crap but their is a budet here as well.

I will have an Ultravalve in a few weeks from Frank and a new Preamp from Frank....I will post my findings on how it compares to the Onkyo receiver etc..I will try in pure 2 ch analog mode, and in HT mode.

I will give you my honest opinion on whether it  is  worth the upgrades!!

All the best
Alex

[Nuance]

jaw5279,

Why not consider a Fet Valve amp?  You'll get some of that tube magic with solid state power, which is the best of both worlds IMO.  I have a Butler TDB 2250 amplifier, and I'd really love to compare it to Franks Ultra 550, keeping the winner. 

IMO you cannot go wrong with any of Frank's gear.  Just my $0.02.

Speaking of the Fet Valve...  Frank, is the design one in which the tubes don't need to be re-biased and don't diminish their lifecycle like regular tube designs?  I can ask in your own forum if this is inappropriate here.  I am really interested in trying one of your Fet Vavle amps.  Thanks.

[clipped]

I have used the AVA Intergrated amp with my Songtowers and it sounds incredible.
I can't imagine anything beating this combination for the $.
Just my opinion, I hope it helps.

[mathgeek97]

If you just want to "try" an Ultravalve, don't worry about making us unhappy if you return it.  However, if you are sure it is just for a temporary tryout, we will supply one of my first generation prototypes that we won't mind if it gets a scuff or minor ding.  If you want to keep it, fine, or then you can exchange it for a brand new shiny one at no extra cost except for shipping.

How can you say "no" to that?
BTW, my solution for getting something tubey in my setup was the AVA T8+ pure-tube preamp.  If I didn't have desctructive kids at home, I'd have gone the UltraValve route instead.
Anyhow... Call Frank!