[bummrush]

because it is over priced and also it doesn't sound good,,the good designers are the ones that ,just to give a general price point are the ones who can design and make good stuff for 4 k.

[jsaliga]

Why is it that so many audio show attendees leave with the impression that much of  the ultra expensive gear is not only obscenely overpriced but also very disappointing in sound quality? On these pages I've read many accounts of speakers that are multiples cheaper than the high priced spread perform better under audio show conditions.

 I suppose you could claim that the high priced speakers need a highly tweaked man cave to really show their colors but IMO for 20 grand + they should sound awesome at the show or it leads me to conclude either the manufactures are clueless about room preparation  or they're trying to pull the wool over the eyes of potential customers who are overly impressed by cosmetics and high price tags.

It seems to me that an audio show is something less than an ideal environment in which make a judgmnent.  But I also believe it takes living with a pair of speakers for a while before you can really get to know them.  I suppose I look at reports from shows like I do any other review and consider it a data point, nothing more. 

I did a few months worth of research before buying my last pair of speakers, and I never auditioned them before making my choice....but the man behind the speakers backed his product and I never felt that I was risking money on the purchase.  The peace of mind that I got from that meant a lot to me, and made it an easy decision.

--Jerome

[Audiovista]

If you read Stereophile, you probably noticed that every once in a while JA, in his measurement tests, uncovers a faulty unit - it either fails during his tests, or specs are nowhere close to the listed ones. Manufacturer confirms the problem, sends a replacement and life goes on. Reviewer typically cannot identify the problem by ear (or sometimes they do and they get called names....). Now, if the review sample, sent to Stereophile, is a bad unit - makes me wonder how many of those get shipped to an unsuspecting customers?

I recently talked to a friend who was asked to take a look at a high end preamp that failed after just a few hours of operation (used unit was bought for $8k). He opened and saw extremely poor construction, low build quality and decided not to get involved. Owner of the preamp took it back to the dealer where he bought it and the guy acknowledged the problem, he saw it too... Dealer took the unit back and guess what - that unit will now be quickly repaired and sold to somebody else who will spend big bucks hoping to get a high quality product. What he really gets is a well known and respected name on a label and junk inside. Now, I do trust my friend, he's got no horse in that race and he believes that the unit was not modified before - that is how it left the manufacturer.

What's the point I'm trying to make ...  ... probably stating the obvious... due dilligence when spending your hard earned $$$ needs to be excercised even for the highest priced gear. Assurance of quality is not proportional to price, seems to be random thing...

[jsaliga]

What's the point I'm trying to make ...  ... probably stating the obvious... due dilligence when spending your hard earned $$$ needs to be excercised even for the highest priced gear. Assurance of quality is not proportional to price, seems to be random thing...

I agree with the due dilligence part.  But I don't know that quality is a random thing as you suggest.  I am familiar with some damned pricey gear turning out to be junk...but I think those are fairly rare exceptions.  I do believe that at higher price points quality is generally engineered into the design.  But, as you said, it pays to know a little something about the company you plan to buy from.  I look at it as investing in a business relationship inasmuch as you buy a product.

I'm also not necessarily expecting the most expensive parts on the planet to go into the products I buy.  The price premium that I might pay from a small guy would be for the engineering and making the right design choices...and for someone to back that product.  I recently bought a pair of speakers from Audiokinesis, and even though it is a one-man shop anyone who knows Duke LeJeune knows that he stands behind his speakers and provides world class customer service.

--Jerome

[Audiovista]

I was thinking about product quality, not necessarily sound quality... as in "price tag is not a quality certificate". In small shops there are no QA (quality Assurance) departments, and that is a drawback (we try to minimize the impact, but nevertheless, it's still a drawback). Big(er) companies should have it. Many probably do and they do what they are supposed to. But, if a faulty product makes it to Stereophile (for example), a QA and/or QC (Quality Control) function definitely does not work that great. One would assume that review samples go through rigorous evaluation before being sent out. But I am digressing from the original theme.... and agree with all posters who are tolerant of other people's preferences and budgets.

And +1 regarding Duke, a great guy indeed! 

[rajacat]

My $57,000 dCS easily sounds twice as good as my $32,000 Naim CD555 did, in addition to playing SACD's and functioning as an upsampling DAC as well.  When I bought the Naim, it sounded more than twice as good as the $16,000 Meridian 808 I was using (though I did lose DVD-a capability).  The Meridan sounded worlds better than the Modwright Denon I was using at the time, and the Modwright Denon sounded light years better than the Ah! Toejb player before it.

And just for laughs, I borrowed an Ah! Tjoeb player from a friend to compare to the dCS, it sounded like a transistor radio in comparison.  However, listening to the Ah! Tjoeb on his Marantz 2275 and JBL L100's, it sounds pretty darn good.

So, I'd say going from a $1,000 player to almost a $60,000 player has yielded pretty linear results.  Granted most people aren't this obsessed, but there's a lot of performance out there.  Your call whether you'd like to spend the money on something else.

"My $57,000 dCS easily sounds twice as good as my $32,000 Naim CD555 did"

With all due respect, how do you confirm that statement? It almost like some of the claims made
on the Mapleshade site that their footers would make your system sound 93% better etc, etc. IMO this sort of hype costs credibility.Instead of twice as good you might be better off saying that there was a noticable improvement in sound quality. "Sounded like a transistor radio in comparison...." Again, IMO, a little less hyperbole would be a wise choice.

"So, I'd say going from a $1,000 player to almost a $60,000 player has yielded pretty linear results."
I doubt this statement. I bet this graph wouldn't be linear but that it would indicate an increasing rate of diminishing returns.

-Roy

[dangerbird]

Well put Roy,, especially the part about diminishing returns,,pretty much sums it up. 

[TONEPUB]

"My $57,000 dCS easily sounds twice as good as my $32,000 Naim CD555 did"

With all due respect, how do you confirm that statement? It almost like some of the claims made
on the Mapleshade site that their footers would make your system sound 93% better etc, etc. IMO this sort of hype costs credibility.Instead of twice as good you might be better off saying that there was a noticable improvement in sound quality. "Sounded like a transistor radio in comparison...." Again, IMO, a little less hyperbole would be a wise choice.

"So, I'd say going from a $1,000 player to almost a $60,000 player has yielded pretty linear results."
I doubt this statement. I bet this graph wouldn't be linear but that it would indicate an increasing rate of diminishing returns.

-Roy

Well again, if you haven't heard these players together in a suitable system, your comments really don't mean much.

And actually the comment comparing the Ah! Tjoeb to the dCS was made by the owner of the Ah! Tjoeb.  To be
exact, he said, "holy shit, my player sounds like a transistor radio compared to that..." 

But as always, it's relative to the system it's installed in.  It sounds great in his system.

And I can confirm the statement on the Naim and the dCS because I own both players and have listened to them
for quite some time.  The Naim is a fantastic player, but myself and everyone on the staff that has heard both
side by side agrees the dCS is in another realm completely, as well as being able to play SACD and high res downloads.

I think you like to use the word hyperbole.

If you've read our magazine, I have used the word "Best" once in five years, and have never written about gear in a flavor of
the month kind of way, but when something this good comes along, I am truly excited about it.

You can have all the opinions you want about diminishing returns.  I stick by my original statement and I've lived
with enough good digital hardware at almost every price point to feel more than comfortable making it.

[werd]

"My $57,000 dCS easily sounds twice as good as my $32,000 Naim CD555 did"

With all due respect, how do you confirm that statement? It almost like some of the claims made
on the Mapleshade site that their footers would make your system sound 93% better etc, etc. IMO this sort of hype costs credibility.Instead of twice as good you might be better off saying that there was a noticable improvement in sound quality. "Sounded like a transistor radio in comparison...." Again, IMO, a little less hyperbole would be a wise choice.

"So, I'd say going from a $1,000 player to almost a $60,000 player has yielded pretty linear results."
I doubt this statement. I bet this graph wouldn't be linear but that it would indicate an increasing rate of diminishing returns.

-Roy

You are asking him to quantify his experience using a graph...... that is pretty much impossible to do. Instead he is using hyperbole like "twice as good", and so forth.

Which is fine with me but i have to admit it makes the hyperbole hard to understand if he doesn't make direct comparisons. I suppose  here(on the thread) he is not really expected to do that when one only has to look up his reviews on-line.   

[rajacat]

I didn't ask him to quantify his graph. I just gave my opinion as to the shape of the graph if it was indeed quantifiable.

[Niteshade]

If we always got at least what we paid for, this thread would not exist.

High prices can be justifiable. There are performance "barriers" that are hard to breach and getting that extra few percent of resolution is NOT easy! Think of playback electronics as sensor packages. At times, the extra resolution can make all the difference in the world and some people are sensitive.

[Guy 13]

Well again, if you haven't heard these players together in a suitable system, your comments really don't mean much.

And actually the comment comparing the Ah! Tjoeb to the dCS was made by the owner of the Ah! Tjoeb.  To be
exact, he said, "holy shit, my player sounds like a transistor radio compared to that..." 

But as always, it's relative to the system it's installed in.  It sounds great in his system.

And I can confirm the statement on the Naim and the dCS because I own both players and have listened to them
for quite some time.  The Naim is a fantastic player, but myself and everyone on the staff that has heard both
side by side agrees the dCS is in another realm completely, as well as being able to play SACD and high res downloads.

I think you like to use the word hyperbole.

If you've read our magazine, I have used the word "Best" once in five years, and have never written about gear in a flavor of
the month kind of way, but when something this good comes along, I am truly excited about it.

You can have all the opinions you want about diminishing returns.  I stick by my original statement and I've lived
with enough good digital hardware at almost every price point to feel more than comfortable making it.

Hi all.
When I started the topic :
<< Up to 200 times more expensive, is it 200 times sonically better ? ? ? >>
I did not expect to make so many waves…
(BTW, what’s wrong with taking a lot of space with my topic on this forum ? If some of you don’t like the fact that so many AC members give their opinion under one single topic, they can always start their own topic about audio performances, etc…)
My idea was to only get opinions of other AC members to compare their opinions with mine
or to see if I was right or wrong with my way of thinking.
I no way I wanted to say that 150,000 USD turntables should not exist or that 10,000 USD interconnects should not be offered to the financially wealthy audiophile.
On this planet there are products for every potential buyer and there are potential buyers for every product, cheap or super expensive, nice looking or just plain looking…
For me and only for me, it does not make sense to spend so much money on something that I think doesn’t give you your money’s worth, that what I think.
Since when I am not allowed to give freely my opinion, even if you don’t agree.
If I don’t like expensive stuff, it’s not because I cannot afford it, it’s because even if I could afford it, it would still not make sense for me to buy such expensive equipment.
I don’t like to own equipment just for the fun of it or to flatter my ego or to show off…
Now, with the above, will I create some more waves, well… I hope so. That the way I found to generate exchange of opinions and learn if I am right or wrong or going into the right direction.
Keep writing and have a nice day.
Guy 13.   

[Niteshade]

Being the way that I am and what I do for a living, it is important to look at the performance aspects of a machine and exclude what could be thought of as decadent.

Decadent behavior is buying simply for the sake of getting something expensive, so it can be thought of as a status symbol. The technical aspects are therefore secondary.

I would prefer to keep the status symbol portion and the "I can't afford it" issues out of this discussion, even though I didn't start it. Emotions cloud rational thought and are useless when discussing the technical/performance aspects of anything.

[nunhgrader]

I like everyone's input here. Interesting topic for sure!

Jeff @ Tone, imho, definitely has some great points having been a reviewer and also a magazine publisher (not to mention the many years of interviews, contacts, factory visits, actually listening to 100's possibly 1000's of systems as well as 1000's of components). I agree with his overall comments, "if you haven't heard..." and also, "if you haven't purchased/ owned." Absolutely unique individual whose comments have some serious weight to them.

rajacat makes some interesting points as well concerning cosmetics and price tags which I also believe can be true and both topics are part of the total picture. People definitely buy/ like with their eyes, ears and wallets.

I hope that manufacturers continue to make statement products that I will most likely never be able to afford - hopefully they are pushing the state of the art and not just maximizing profit but, I do believe profit is also a just and valid motive - not something evil. I think Jeff's comment about people being dismissive is sadly spot on.

Different strokes for different folks - live and let live. I enjoy this hobby too and hope that there will always be differences of opinion - it's healthy!

[arthurs]

Great post, you ARE the disco!   

I like everyone's input here. Interesting topic for sure!

Jeff @ Tone, imho, definitely has some great points having been a reviewer and also a magazine publisher (not to mention the many years of interviews, contacts, factory visits, actually listening to 100's possibly 1000's of systems as well as 1000's of components). I agree with his overall comments, "if you haven't heard..." and also, "if you haven't purchased/ owned." Absolutely unique individual whose comments have some serious weight to them.

rajacat makes some interesting points as well concerning cosmetics and price tags which I also believe can be true and both topics are part of the total picture. People definitely buy/ like with their eyes, ears and wallets.

I hope that manufacturers continue to make statement products that I will most likely never be able to afford - hopefully they are pushing the state of the art and not just maximizing profit but, I do believe profit is also a just and valid motive - not something evil. I think Jeff's comment about people being dismissive is sadly spot on.

Different strokes for different folks - live and let live. I enjoy this hobby too and hope that there will always be differences of opinion - it's healthy!