[doorman]

It greatly depends on what one has to do to earn the $$'s to buy a particular piece of gear.
A good market position/outcome, or slugging it out in the rain building something!!
Don

[Thebiker]

I don't go looking for either "exotic or esoteric".  I will admit, if all things are equal (sound/performance quality) I try to avoid exotic and go with gear built within my own shores.  Its just my personal quirk, YMMV.

I go looking (listening) for the best sound that my wallet can handle.  I have found that to be found as much, if not more, dependent on the system synergy than $ spent.  I have heard a collection of pricey components sound worse than mass produced mid-fi.  We have all run into that.  I have also heard systems done around vintage gear (Scott integrated) and inexpensive speakers sound terrific.  Total outlay, maybe $600 with a used CD player.  Was it the ultimate in resolution...no.  Did it get you into the music and allow major enjoyment...yes.

I probably have $15K total wrapped up in 2 different systems.  I stopped at what I considered extreme point of diminishing return.  There was a lot of steps through a lot of years to get to where I am.  To do appreciably better, it would take close to twice as much money.  Not worth it to me at that point.  However, both tubed systems make me smile and tap my feet.

Its not about the money (unless you are just looking for the Status Symbol).  Its about enjoying the music.
JMHO
Walt

[TONEPUB]

When did expensive hifi become a status symbol?  Expensive houses, cars and watches are status symbols.  Expensive hifi is misunderstood by most and dismissed by almost everyone else.

If you tell someone you've spent 100k on a Porsche, they usually think you've got something on the ball.  If you tell someone you just spent 60k on a piece of hifi gear they think you are an idiot.

Why do these threads always go the same direction, that anyone that's spent more than a certain amount of money on hifi can't have any sense at all, just because it's something someone else can't afford?  I'd love to have a new (or even slightly used) Bentley Continental.  It's probably never going to happen.  But I've driven them, they are awesome cars, way better than my used 3 series BMW and no less awesome just because I can't have one.

Some of the ridiculously expensive hifi is also ridiculously good.  (and some of it isn't) Sorry if you don't believe it.

[viggen]

Sound is the most important factor. 

I also look at design philosophy.  I don't know much about building electronics, but I try to look at what the designer is trying to accomplish then judge whether the execution justifies the quality vs price ratio.

Secondary, I look at the designers taste in aesthetics. 

Thirdly, having something that is not common or not common-wisdom appeals to me too. 

An example of this is 47 Labs equipment when I first learned of them about 8 years ago.  The company influenced the way how I interpret electronics to be aesthetically and sonically pleasing. 

That being said, I wouldn't say its retail price is justified.

I might be beating around the bush, but, to me, esoteric has its place but its the whole package.  I guess what I am trying to say is the customer is buying into a state of mind when it comes to esoteric goods.

Another factor probably has to do with having the latest and greatest as previously mentioned which also brings up the keeping up with the Jones factor.  I know when I sold stereo quite a few years ago, some of my highest paying clients were definitely testoterone driven during their purchasing decision ie. "I will buy it as long as it's better than Brand XYZ."

[Niteshade]

When you get right down to it- a tube amplifier is exotic and esoteric to the general public. It is unusual and understood by few now days. Within a group of HiFi enthusiasts it's clearly neither exotic or esoteric. It's interesting to note that WalMart is carrying a tube hybrid amp for Ipods. A little exotic tech does draw in customers.

A few folks touched down on what I was after: It is worth it to spend an incredible amount of money on audio equipment? Whether we can afford it or not is irrelevant. Do you really see a large performance difference between a $20K amp and a $3K amp, preamp, speakers, turnatble etc...? Is this difference enough to make the extra expenditure worth while?

The question was spurred by the enormous amount of used gear on Audiogon that is very,very expensive. Maybe they need the money? That's fine. Maybe they found something much less expensive that does the same job? We know one fact from Audiogon: People are buying expensive audio gear. Allot of them are. The lists are just a small fraction of people buying it. Has to be!

From what I have been directly told, HiFi gear is often thought of as a status symbol, just like a car or house.

[mcgsxr]

Some interesting perspectives here on what constitutes exotic and esoteric.  Esoteric likely easier to identify, but exotic can be interpreted in different ways.

For me, exotic simply refers to less mainstream choices, and I feel that most of my system qualifies.

Although PC based audio is mass market these days, the use of FLAC and a modded Logitech SB3 immediately qualifies in my mind, as exotic.

DIY speakers, let alone open baffle, qualifies for sure.

A 50+ year old tube amp also likely qualifies.

Now, did I choose this gear specifically because I feel it is exotic?  No, it is a system that has been pulled together because it is economical for me, and it plays well together, AND it is exotic.

Anyone who knows me well, knows that I love things that stand out, in addition to being good.  I cannot tolerate it standing out just to stand out though - it has to be good too.

My car audio gear would also reflect that - plain jane head unit (don't want my car getting broken into for some exotic piece!), but the amp is old school Orion, the components Zapco, and the subs DIY Canadian designed, Chinese built units.

So too my selection of golf clubs - old school Ping irons, customized old school Ping putter, custom built driver (SMT head) etc.

Absolutely the way I used to customize motorcycles - good gear that was off the beaten path.

[Nuance]

I don't go looking for either "exotic or esoteric".  I will admit, if all things are equal (sound/performance quality) I try to avoid exotic and go with gear built within my own shores.  Its just my personal quirk, YMMV.

I go looking (listening) for the best sound that my wallet can handle.  I have found that to be found as much, if not more, dependent on the system synergy than $ spent.  I have heard a collection of pricey components sound worse than mass produced mid-fi.  We have all run into that.  I have also heard systems done around vintage gear (Scott integrated) and inexpensive speakers sound terrific.  Total outlay, maybe $600 with a used CD player.  Was it the ultimate in resolution...no.  Did it get you into the music and allow major enjoyment...yes.

I probably have $15K total wrapped up in 2 different systems.  I stopped at what I considered extreme point of diminishing return.  There was a lot of steps through a lot of years to get to where I am.  To do appreciably better, it would take close to twice as much money.  Not worth it to me at that point.  However, both tubed systems make me smile and tap my feet.

Its not about the money (unless you are just looking for the Status Symbol).  Its about enjoying the music.
JMHO
Walt

Well stated, sir.  Too many folks assume higher costs equals better performance, and it just isn't the case with this hobby.  I've heard "cheap" gear pummel expensive gear and vice versa. Its all about system synergy, and in order to achieve it you need to keep an open mind and put in the research and audition time, else you may get suckered and/or never achieve your goal. 

When did expensive hifi become a status symbol?  Expensive houses, cars and watches are status symbols.  Expensive hifi is misunderstood by most and dismissed by almost everyone else.

If you tell someone you've spent 100k on a Porsche, they usually think you've got something on the ball.  If you tell someone you just spent 60k on a piece of hifi gear they think you are an idiot.

Why do these threads always go the same direction, that anyone that's spent more than a certain amount of money on hifi can't have any sense at all, just because it's something someone else can't afford?  I'd love to have a new (or even slightly used) Bentley Continental.  It's probably never going to happen.  But I've driven them, they are awesome cars, way better than my used 3 series BMW and no less awesome just because I can't have one.

Some of the ridiculously expensive hifi is also ridiculously good.  (and some of it isn't) Sorry if you don't believe it.

You're right: some of it is ridiculously good; some isn't.  Determining which is which can be a difficult task, as there are scams abroad in this hobby.  The law of diminishing returns applies for most enthusiasts, but that law varies on an individual basis. 

I don't agree about the status symbol thing, though.  I know some folks who purchased their audio system based solely on cost, with the goal to impress people with figures, not sound.  Some of those people didn't even listen to the system before purchasing it.  To each their own I say.  But hey, that's what makes this hobby what it is, and why it can be so fun. 

For me, esoteric and exotic have nothing to do with it.  I purchase based on sound quality first, then how well it holds up using the price vs performance ratio.  If I feel the price is justified, I'll snatch it up and wont think twice about it.  Why?  Because only I need to be happy (well, maybe my wife too ).

P.S. Having gear that looks as good as it sounds is something I desire as well, so I'd pay a little extra for the sexiness appeal; but that's just me.

[BobRex]

When you get right down to it- a tube amplifier is exotic and esoteric to the general public. It is unusual and understood by few now days. Within a group of HiFi enthusiasts it's clearly neither exotic or esoteric. It's interesting to note that WalMart is carrying a tube hybrid amp for Ipods. A little exotic tech does draw in customers.

A few folks touched down on what I was after: It is worth it to spend an incredible amount of money on audio equipment? Whether we can afford it or not is irrelevant. Do you really see a large performance difference between a $20K amp and a $3K amp, preamp, speakers, turnatble etc...? Is this difference enough to make the extra expenditure worth while?

The question was spurred by the enormous amount of used gear on Audiogon that is very,very expensive. Maybe they need the money? That's fine. Maybe they found something much less expensive that does the same job? We know one fact from Audiogon: People are buying expensive audio gear. Allot of them are. The lists are just a small fraction of people buying it. Has to be!

From what I have been directly told, HiFi gear is often thought of as a status symbol, just like a car or house.

Is it worth it???  The problem is this is an apple and oranges type question - take a look at your own product.  The SEP25 is sold direct and can be opted out to sell for 5K.  Now you are quite proud of the amp and you would definitely say it's worth the 5K.  But... suppose you wanted to forgo the direct marketing and instead rely on a dealer network and possibly a distribution network.  Now you may have to standardize the build (no more custom orders), bulk up on parts, possibly change the cosmetics - maybe even hide the tubes behind a cage, hire qualified workers to build the units (wages, taxes, benefits...), and set up support staff.  You'd want to recoup your investment so that amp may now have a manufacturer's price of 6K.  Add in the distributor and the price jumps up to 8K (and that's conservative), now add in the dealer profit and your flagship amp sells for 12K.  Is the amp still worth it?  Has it's exotic cache jumped up a couple of notches?  Has the sound changed?

There are very few high cost pieces that are sold direct to consumer, so they have a distinct disadvantage against a direct bulder / retailer.

In my mind, based on the above, the question is kind of disingenuous.  Yes, you can build an amp that makes the high ticket stuff look outlandish.  Your price to performance ratio is substantially different than the other companies and that's to your advantage. 

Now if you are talking retail to retail, yes there really is a sonic difference.  Nobody that has spent time truly working with this stuff would argue that, but given diminishing returns the difference may be slight and to many, not worth the additional (perhaps in their mind outrageous) expense.   Such is life.

[jtwrace]

Looking through the web over the years, I have seen tons of exotic/esoteric audio gear. There is plenty of stuff that has 5 & 6 digit price tags. Question is: Are there any benefits to spending at least $10k on any single item? I am being over generalized on purpose.

What will going from a $5k to a $10k price tag bring to the table?

Most of the time spending more money usually gets you glitz IMO.  Many people in this hobby are all about the looks rather then the sound.  I did when I was able to spend whatever I wanted but after a few years realized that the sound wasn't really better.  It was different just like everything else.  I then stepped back and looked at a buddies system that was 10% of mine and it sounded almost as good.  Then I got thinking....

I still have two pieces that are very expensive but I really like them and haven't found anything to compete to my ears.

[rollo]

When did expensive hifi become a status symbol?  Expensive houses, cars and watches are status symbols.  Expensive hifi is misunderstood by most and dismissed by almost everyone else.

If you tell someone you've spent 100k on a Porsche, they usually think you've got something on the ball.  If you tell someone you just spent 60k on a piece of hifi gear they think you are an idiot.

Why do these threads always go the same direction, that anyone that's spent more than a certain amount of money on hifi can't have any sense at all, just because it's something someone else can't afford?  I'd love to have a new (or even slightly used) Bentley Continental.  It's probably never going to happen.  But I've driven them, they are awesome cars, way better than my used 3 series BMW and no less awesome just because I can't have one.

Some of the ridiculously expensive hifi is also ridiculously good.  (and some of it isn't) Sorry if you don't believe it.

  Exactly.  It is human nature. There will always be a jealousy or envy present. Sorry the truth hurts. The car analogy is a sound one. For the person who would love to own a Porshe Turbo and cannot afford it he modifies his car and gets close. Appreciates some of the performance but still not a Porsche. He would love to own one. However not finanially possible. It is all about the money.
  Now the other spectrem is the Audiophile who can assemble a fine sounding system on the used market. Just gotta know what your doing. A seasoned Audiophile would have a better chance with that situation.

charles

[Quiet Earth]

In my mind, based on the above, the question is kind of disingenuous.

Agreed. Completely disingenuous and self serving. Again.

[BobRex]

  Exactly.  It is human nature. There will always be a jealousy or envy present. Sorry the truth hurts. The car analogy is a sound one. For the person who would love to own a Porshe Turbo and cannot afford it he modifies his car and gets close. Appreciates some of the performance but still not a Porsche. He would love to own one. However not finanially possible. It is all about the money.
  Now the other spectrem is the Audiophile who can assemble a fine sounding system on the used market. Just gotta know what your doing. A seasoned Audiophile would have a better chance with that situation.

charles

But you can also but a damned fine 911 on the used market at a hefty discount.  So cars, audio, boats, women (just kidding) can either be bought new at a high price or bought used at a discount. No difference.

[Niteshade]

Quite right- In order to preserve price and performance relevancy, merchandise from a vendor cannot be compared to merchandise that is factory direct. It has to be merchant to merchant and manufacturer to manufacturer. In many cases, you'll see vendor prices on manufacturer's web sites so underselling doesn't take place.

[TONEPUB]

But you can also but a damned fine 911 on the used market at a hefty discount.  So cars, audio, boats, women (just kidding) can either be bought new at a high price or bought used at a discount. No difference.

I couldn't agree with you more.  Matter of fact, I've been seeing some very nice 00 and 01 911's with low miles that cost about what a new Corolla stickers at.  However, someone had to buy that car new and take the hit, as it is with all consumer goods.

This also brings up the point of, as many people mentioned here, the love of sound above all else.  If that is your priority and you are a smart used shopper, there are certainly some great deals to be had on used gear, especially in regards to amplifiers and speakers on the used market.

However, as we tend to touch a bit more of the luxury goods market, I've spent a lot of time talking to those customers and it's a different mindset.  Many of those guys want a brand new piece of gear, the warranty, etc etc and have the means to pay for it.  I don't  think that everyone should be so hard on this segment of the market, and willing to pass those people off as "idiots", because those are the guys that are providing the secondary market with a lot of gear...

The bottom line to me is that there are great opportunities for a good system, no matter what your budget.

It's always the comments like "there's no point in spending more than 20k on a system..." that I find troubling, because it's all relative. 

And as for the mfr direct pricing vs the dealer channel, it's really a different game.  If you want more bang for your buck, the mfr. direct route is an excellent way to go.  But it is a different experience.

[woodsyi]

Yes, Blair.

I only go for the most exotic and esoteric gear that are uber-expensive.  Your stuff is priced way too low for me to consider as I know for sure the higher priced gear is always better. 

[srb]

I like to buy good sounding, quiet, reliable, medium cost components that also have just a tiny bit of styling flair.  I don't want to pay for over complicated machined masses of aluminum ala Bolder or Pass Labs, but instead the components should exude minimalist class.  Silkscreened, engraved or etched legends on front and back panels are of course a must.
 
Steve

[ctviggen]

  Exactly.  It is human nature. There will always be a jealousy or envy present. Sorry the truth hurts. The car analogy is a sound one. For the person who would love to own a Porshe Turbo and cannot afford it he modifies his car and gets close.

I'm not envious of anyone who owns any type of Porsche.  Really and truly.  I guess this is "human nature" for some humans, but by no means all of them.

[jtwrace]

I like to buy good sounding, quiet, reliable, medium cost components that also have just a tiny bit of styling flair.  I don't want to pay for over complicated machined masses of aluminum ala Bolder or Pass Labs, but instead the components should exude minimalist class.  Silkscreened, engraved or etched legends on front and back panels are of course a must.
 
Steve

Glad that I've met your expectations.      

My subs (see my gallery) on the other hand....

[floresjc]

To be quite honest, anybody on this board would be considered exotic or esoteric, considering even the cheapest brands of anything we buy cost probably twice as much as what you could get a whole box system at Best Buy for.

To put it bluntly, a bottom of the barrel $400 SVS sub seems mighty expensive to the general public, who may have $30 computer speakers or a $400 home theater *system*. To us, its not worth wasting your time on, unless you are just getting started.

I own Salk and AVA. There's nothing particularly snazzy about the brands, Jim makes pretty much square speakers with nice wood veneers (really nice if you want to get crazy), and Frank makes probably the plainest components around. But I don't know of anyone who wouldn't think I'm off my rocker because I paid $1k for a stereo amp. Likewise, they are going to look at the Infiniti's at Best Buy and my SongTower and say "what gives?". Most time, when people ask me what stuff I have, I tell them Salk, and they are like "who the heck is that? shoulda got Klipsch/JBL/Bose. I may as well have a third leg and be green.

[BobRex]

And as for the mfr direct pricing vs the dealer channel, it's really a different game.  If you want more bang for your buck, the mfr. direct route is an excellent way to go.  But it is a different experience.

Rant mode on.....

You're right, it is a different experience, but given the originator of this thread a few of us are well, let's just say more than a little suspicious of Blair's intent.  The thread was started by a direct seller, whose most expensive item is under 5K, asking if there truly is a sonic difference in items above 10K.  I think you'll agree that there are damned few mfr. direct pieces selling for over 10K.  So for Blair to ask that question it becomes a swipe at the dealer channel. 

Look at the original question:"Are there any benefits to spending at least $10k on any single item? I am being over generalized on purpose.  What will going from a $5k to a $10k price tag bring to the table?"

Let me rephrase the original question: "For those of you who frequent dealers, have you heard anything over 10K that compares to my 5K wonder?"  or "Why would you want to spend 10K when I can provide the same (or possibly better) sound for 5k?"  Am I cynical?  You bet!  Really, what was Blair's goal?  Now take a look at the responses.  How many responders have actually addressed the question, intead of discussing the why's of expensive equipment or bringing up the old "status symbol" line or how the common man thinks that all of our stuff is esoteric? 

Being the cynic that I am, I see that most of the responses probably feed into Blair's real goal - bolstering interest in his product by having AC members bash the "esoteric" (read expensive) equipment and those that (to ACers) appear to have more coin than common sense.