Relative importance of components

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Kevin Haskins

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #60 on: 18 Jun 2010, 06:37 pm »
werd -

I understand what you are saying.  But taking a $10,000 budget, I know I can get better results using, say, our Veracity HT3's and $4000 worth of other gear, than with SongSurround II's, as good as they are, and $8500 worth of gear. 

It's not that you can't get fairly good sound out of a $1500 pair of speakers.  But you can get far better sound out of a $6000 pair of speakers, even if it means spending a little less on the other gear. 

I have never known this not to be the case.  I have demonstrated speakers with an amp I bought at a flee market for $125 and no one ever complained about the lousy sound.  Naturally, a better amp would have sounded better, but the sound quality was good enough for demonstration purposes.

- Jim

Hope you don't mind me jumping in.... just nuke it if it is an issue but I agree.    At a speaker contest for the Pacific Northwest Audio society a couple years ago we had a problem with a big-name $4000 amplifier.   I think a tube went south so I brought in my home-brew LM4780 amp that I use in the measurement system.    Everyone was commenting on how good it sounded.    Most of these guys had >$10K-$20K systems and I didn't have the heart to tell them that it was maybe $25 in parts, counting the transformer maybe $50, but it illustrates your point.     

Does that humble amplifier sound as good as some other more expensive amplifiers I've heard?   In some situations it sounds as good as anything (easy load) but no... it isn't as good as a carefully crafted set of monoblocks driving a complex load and it would be hopeless driving something like Electrostatics or some other brutal load.     It is a wonderful little amp for easy loads though and bulletproof.   It is repeatedly shorted, and no allowance was ever given to treating it carefully.    So... if you carefully chose the appropriate load for them then can be excellent.    The same cannot be said of loudspeakers..... cheap ones suck and it makes zero sense in my tightwad opinion to try and save money on the most important aspect of reproduction.   




werd

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #61 on: 18 Jun 2010, 06:39 pm »
A Panasonic XR57 digital receiver (the one I bought at a flee market for $125). No mods - in my opinion I don't need them. 

I use the same squeezebox on my higher end system and no mods are required.  I am running the digital out into an AVA Vision DAC that uses a Wolfson 8742 digital chip set.  I use this same DAC with an inexpensive Denon CD player as well.

In either case, it is the quality of the DAC that determines the quality of the sound.

If there were problems with the transport, they would be found in two areas:  data errors and/or clock jitter.

Data errors are almost non-existent.  There is enough error correction built into any CD transport to almost eliminate data errors.  If this were not the case, computers would not be able to run properly as software is often distributed on CD's and bit-for-bit accuracy is mandatory (computer transports are not normally high-end either). 

With the Wolfson chip in the Vision DAC, clock jitter is not really an issue.  If it is really bad, you may be able to see it in radio frequency measurements, but not in audio measurements.  The chip set is optimized to virtually eliminate audio distortion due to any clock jitter.

So...if you have a good bit stream feeding a good DAC (and both the Squeezebox and Denon are certainly good enough to provide a good bit stream), the resulting sound quality rests almost entirely with the DAC (in this case the Wolfson, which is one of the best).  Nothing you do to mod the squeezebox and no change in the CD transport itself will have any effect on the sound quality put out by the DAC.

That is my opinion based on the engineering involved.  If someone can provide a demonstration, in the form of a blind test, that an expensive transport can provide better sound quality, I am all ears.  But until then, I prefer not to drink that cool-aid.

Again, just one person's opinion and not necessarily the final word on the matter.

- Jim

Hello

i almost bought a early version of that reciever at London Drugs out of pure respect. Anyways
i completely disagree with your account on transport variations. They do play a big role and they don't
need to be expensive. Some still are and maybe you get what you pay for. But i'm not a speaker manufacturers
so maybe transports are more important to me ...idk. I bet you if you go over to a digital player manufacture and ask
the same question their opinions would be very different.....

out

cacophony777

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #62 on: 18 Jun 2010, 06:52 pm »
I bet you if you go over to a digital player manufacture and ask
the same question their opinions would be very different.....

Give it a try and let us know what they say. I would love to hear a reason to support your theory. I need a way to justify my expensive CD player  :wink:

I have the Onkyo C-S5VL SACD player which cost me $350. I mainly got it because it uses the excellent Wolfson 8742 DAC for the analog out. It also looks slick and matches my Onkyo A-9555 integrated amp.

werd

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #63 on: 18 Jun 2010, 07:22 pm »
Hope you don't mind me jumping in.... just nuke it if it is an issue but I agree.    At a speaker contest for the Pacific Northwest Audio society a couple years ago we had a problem with a big-name $4000 amplifier.   I think a tube went south so I brought in my home-brew LM4780 amp that I use in the measurement system.    Everyone was commenting on how good it sounded.    Most of these guys had >$10K-$20K systems and I didn't have the heart to tell them that it was maybe $25 in parts, counting the transformer maybe $50, but it illustrates your point.     

Does that humble amplifier sound as good as some other more expensive amplifiers I've heard?   In some situations it sounds as good as anything (easy load) but no... it isn't as good as a carefully crafted set of monoblocks driving a complex load and it would be hopeless driving something like Electrostatics or some other brutal load.     It is a wonderful little amp for easy loads though and bulletproof.   It is repeatedly shorted, and no allowance was ever given to treating it carefully.    So... if you carefully chose the appropriate load for them then can be excellent.    The same cannot be said of loudspeakers..... cheap ones suck and it makes zero sense in my tightwad opinion to try and save money on the most important aspect of reproduction.

Ok, and what was the source here ?. Why don't we ever hear of people inserting $150 cd players gleefully?. Because they don't and we all know why... Because no salavation can be had once the signal has been screwd...

jtwrace

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Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #64 on: 18 Jun 2010, 07:34 pm »
Ok, and what was the source here ?. Why don't we ever hear of people inserting $150 cd players gleefully?. Because they don't and we all know why... Because no salavation can be had once the signal has been screwd...

Umm.  I think it's more ego and belief (what you want to).  My $14K mono blocks & Dodd Buffer sound really good.  After trying the Virtue TWO.2 ($499) in my system it's scary how good it sounded.  The fact is that there is a lot of doubt associated with a certain price point IMO.  If I did a double blind test I think it could be interesting...

jsalk

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #65 on: 18 Jun 2010, 07:38 pm »
werd -

First, thanks for your participation in this discussion.  We all need to re-examine our beliefs from time to time and may find them lacking under greater scrutiny.  So I am glad you are here to challenge my thinking.

But I would really like an answer to this question:  What can an inexpensive player or un-modded Squeezebox do to ruin sound quality if you are only using it to pass a bitstream to an outboard DAC?  Provided the bitstream is accurate (and in almost all cases it will be) and jitter is at least reasonable, what other source factors might influence performance?

Keep in mind that it is the DAC that creates the analog signal you are listening to (from the supplied bitstream). 

- Jim

Nuance

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #66 on: 18 Jun 2010, 07:47 pm »
I compared the following (using the same interconnects if applicable and level matching the outputs):

1)  Pioneer Elite CD/DVD player as CD player and as CD transport into a Proceed AVP

2)  Shengya tube CDP as CDP

3)  Ack Dack D/A driving by Pioneer Elite and by Proceed PMDT transport

4)  Proceed PMDT into Ack Dack or into Proceed AVP

5)  Modified Squeezebox (analog outs)

#5 was best, very, very closely followed by #2.  #1 as CDP was worst, by far. 

To perform these tests, I listened to the same snippets of songs over and over and over again. As stated above, I used the same analog interconnect for both pieces of equipment being tested (if applicable).  I also level matched the outputs. 

Is this enough "evidence"?

As far as what makes the most difference in a system, certainly speakers are high on that list, as are room treatments.  Some of the comparisons I made above were at the "I have to listen to this 10 times to determine differences" level.


Thanks for putting in the time to compare; its no easy task.  For what its worth, I don't doubt there are differences between transports; there are.  I just feel they are much more subtle than differences between speakers.  With transports you don't always get what you pay for. 

Again, thanks for sharing your experience with us.

werd

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #67 on: 18 Jun 2010, 07:56 pm »
werd -

First, thanks for your participation in this discussion.  We all need to re-examine our beliefs from time to time and may find them lacking under greater scrutiny.  So I am glad you are here to challenge my thinking.

But I would really like an answer to this question:  What can an inexpensive player or un-modded Squeezebox do to ruin sound quality if you are only using it to pass a bitstream to an outboard DAC?  Provided the bitstream is accurate (and in almost all cases it will be) and jitter is at least reasonable, what other source factors might influence performance?

Keep in mind that it is the DAC that creates the analog signal you are listening to (from the supplied bitstream). 

- Jim


Hello

I guess you are under the impression i don't like the squeezebox. Which i do. Its pretty good source. But as far as
a poor quality cd player or even a dvd player. I find the output is wimped out. It come across with zero authority
in bass, most likely the result of a lousy power supply and coax out. They also are very tinny and produce a very high digital glare.
Here timing sucks and basically is junk when compared to a decent transport like my Modded sony. Its so noticeable its not even funny

My laptop unplugged is decent and give lots of prat but with usb it just doesnt drive the dac with good output. I suppose this is why we
see products like the offramp from Empirical Audio that basically become the transport for a harddrive. These devices address all shortcomings of
a lousy transport and take over the role.

cacophony777

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #68 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:02 pm »
But as far as
a poor quality cd player or even a dvd player. I find the output is wimped out.

I assume for the unsatisfactory CD and DVD players you've heard you were using the digital out, right? If you used the analog out then you're comparing DACs.

werd

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #69 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:05 pm »
I assume for the unsatisfactory CD and DVD players you've heard you were using the digital out, right? If you used the analog out then you're comparing DACs.

yes

Nuance

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #70 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:09 pm »
Werd,

Prove it.  That's all we're asking.  Can you prove anything you said?  WILL you prove anything you said?  Simply stating what you think does not count.

bpape

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Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #71 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:09 pm »
Just changing the power supply on the SB3 from the little switcher to a regulated linear makes a big difference in the noise floor, edge in the upper mids and highs, better bottom end, etc.  Go from there to a battery and all of those things get even better. 

I have both a standard SB3 and one that has digital and analog out mods along with power supply mods in the unit itself.  We've done several comparisons and honestly, it's really not even close.  The stock SB3 is very mid-fi by comparison IMO.

Just my 2 cents based on my experience, in my system.\

Bryan

cacophony777

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #72 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:10 pm »
yes

I think you should have somebody administer a blind A/B test and see if you can tell the difference.

cacophony777

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #73 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:12 pm »
Just changing the power supply on the SB3 from the little switcher to a regulated linear makes a big difference in the noise floor, edge in the upper mids and highs, better bottom end, etc.  Go from there to a battery and all of those things get even better. 

But you're claiming these make a difference with the analog outs, not digital outs right?

werd

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #74 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:15 pm »
I get the impression that many people still hold .....  price to quality. I am glad to say that this isnt so true anymore with digital playback. You can get real nice digital play back cheap. Read my threads i keep pressing that.

I would like to make funny metaphor that is not directed at any brand. It does underline my view on this whole issue....

You walk into a public washroom and it stinks. You spray a nice flowery airspray hoping it works..... Butl it ends up only smelling like a flower took a shit.

The same can be said about a $10k pair of speakers and a cheap source and amp. You turn it on and it ends up sounding like a $10k pair of speakers taking a shit......  :lol:

Iff

jsalk

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #75 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:24 pm »
Just changing the power supply on the SB3 from the little switcher to a regulated linear makes a big difference in the noise floor, edge in the upper mids and highs, better bottom end, etc.  Go from there to a battery and all of those things get even better. 

I have both a standard SB3 and one that has digital and analog out mods along with power supply mods in the unit itself.  We've done several comparisons and honestly, it's really not even close.  The stock SB3 is very mid-fi by comparison IMO.

Just my 2 cents based on my experience, in my system.\

Bryan

Bryan -

I understand modding the analog outputs as they are probably not very good.  But what is gained modding the digital outs?  Does the mod involve replacing the internal digital clock? 

Further, when using digital outs and feeding an outboard DAC, I do not understand how a power supply change could possibly improve the sound. 

Two years ago at RMAF, a guy selling "high-end" power supplies for the Squeezebox gave me one to try out. I was using the digital out to feed an AVA DAC.  I couldn't hear any difference at all - nothing.  Then again, admittedly, that is the result I was expecting.

On that topic at least, a blind test is in order.

- Jim

cacophony777

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #76 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:28 pm »
Jim (or Dennis or ...), when you have a moment I'd love to hear your thoughts on this:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=82544.msg795479#msg795479

eclein

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Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #77 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:30 pm »
When I added $30 linear power supply to my SB Duet, I heard an incredible sonic improvement, was one of the best tweaks ever for my setup-FWIW :thumb: :thumb:

jsalk

Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #78 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:31 pm »
When I added $30 linear power supply to my SB Duet, I heard an incredible sonic improvement, was one of the best tweaks ever for my setup-FWIW :thumb: :thumb:

Were you using analog or digital outs?

- Jim

eclein

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Re: Relative importance of components
« Reply #79 on: 18 Jun 2010, 08:35 pm »
Digital outputs to a DAC..it was quite amazing. I was quite surprised that such a difference would take place with just a different power supply.