[coke]

I've been trying to fine tune my speaker setup and have a question.

When sounds come from anywhere in between the speakers, there is a LOT of depth to the music.  It sounds like it comes from many feet behind them.

When sounds come from either the far left or far right, the sound is brought forward and it sounds as if it's coming from the speakers rather than behind them.

Basically it sounds like the music is in a V shape.  Imagine each speaker being at the ends of the V, and the seating position in the open part of the V listening toward the point.  It's not actually that extreme since anything between the 2 speakers has close to the same depth, but hopefully it gives you an idea.     

What can be done to even out the differences so that sound in the middle and outsides have the same depth?

I've experimented with toe in.  Currently the inside rear of the speakers are 19" from the wall, and the outside rear are 19.5" from the wall.  Adding any more messes up the imaging, so I'm not sure what else to try.

I'm very limted on placement due to a small asymmetrical room, and a 100" screen that can't be blocked with speakers.

The speakers and my seating position form an 86" equilateral triangle.  My seating position is about 12.5" from the wall. 

I appreciate any help.

[Vulcan00]

COKE:

From the information you have provided it sounds to me the Master set  might be a good method for setting up your speakers.  The cost is min.  all you need is the Jennifer Warnes tune "Ballad of a runaway Horse" and about 1-3 hours of  time.

My experience was once you get feel of the method it real easy to do especially if you have a helper to move the speakers. In the end my speakers end up a very close to thier original position. The "toe-in" procedure with this method is where I  recieved my greatest improvement. Your results with the V listening point with depth and soundstage reminded me of the benifits of the master set speaker set-up.

You can find numerous treads on AC about it try this one:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=60819.0

Harrison

[coke]

I've looked into that in the past but never gave it a try. I'm extremly limted on speaker placement, but I'll see if I can make that work.

Thanks

[strat95]

How wide is your room?  You mentioned distance from the back wall, but what is the distance between the speakers right now (measure center line of tweeter to center line of tweeter)?  Are the speakers centered in the room?


TV

[fsimms]

I think I will try the Master Set procedure.  This is a picture of some speakers that were professionally set with the Master Set procedure.   This is the link where I stole the picture.  It has a description of what was done.

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=65908.msg617710#msg617710

Most of the examples that I have read, on the internet, just had the speakers out 15” to 24” from the wall.  I think it should work in just about anybody’s  room.

Bob

[coke]

How wide is your room?  You mentioned distance from the back wall, but what is the distance between the speakers right now (measure center line of tweeter to center line of tweeter)?  Are the speakers centered in the room?


TV

Distance between speakers is 86"

The room is 14' wide.  Due to doors and windows, the speakers aren't centered.  The left speaker is about 8" from a closet. The right speaker is about 57" from a wall.

I've experimented with the closet by taking the sliding doors off.  It seems to have helped some.

[strat95]

Hi coke,

The following is a guide from the Cardas website and it is a basic guide for rectangular rooms.  It may not get you the ultimate results but it's a great start.  After getting frustrated with speaker placement myself, I used the simple formulae and found I had the best results in my room.

Speaker placement, simply stated.
The distance from the center of the woofer face to the side walls is:
Room Width times .276 (RW x .276).
The distance from the center of the woofer face to the wall behind
the speaker is:
Room Width times .447 (RW x .447).
This is all you need to know to place speakers in a symmetrical,
rectangular room!

Your room width is 14' or 168 inches.

Even if it can't be a permanent set up, try placing your speakers about 46 & 3/8 inches from the side walls and about 75 inches from the rear wall.  Distance between your speakers should be about 75.25 inches.

Start without any toe in.  Experiment with small amounts of toe in but do not angle the speakers so the drivers are pointing directly at your head.  Different speakers will give different results with toe in.

Give the above a try and please report back your findings.

Cheers,

TV

[coke]

Hi coke,

The following is a guide from the Cardas website and it is a basic guide for rectangular rooms.  It may not get you the ultimate results but it's a great start.  After getting frustrated with speaker placement myself, I used the simple formulae and found I had the best results in my room.

Speaker placement, simply stated.
The distance from the center of the woofer face to the side walls is:
Room Width times .276 (RW x .276).
The distance from the center of the woofer face to the wall behind
the speaker is:
Room Width times .447 (RW x .447).
This is all you need to know to place speakers in a symmetrical,
rectangular room!

Your room width is 14' or 168 inches.

Even if it can't be a permanent set up, try placing your speakers about 46 & 3/8 inches from the side walls and about 75 inches from the rear wall.  Distance between your speakers should be about 75.25 inches.

Start without any toe in.  Experiment with small amounts of toe in but do not angle the speakers so the drivers are pointing directly at your head.  Different speakers will give different results with toe in.

Give the above a try and please report back your findings.

Cheers,

TV

.
Thanks for taking the time to post that.  I had read it months ago but had forgotten all about it.

I forgot to mention that the room isn't square. 14'x12'

So that would only leave me 57" from the front of the speakers, assuming I sat against the wall.  Do you still think it's worth trying?

[vintagebob]

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=78833.0

[strat95]

Hi coke,

The room doesn't need to be square.  Yours being 14' x 12' will do just fine which means your speakers are currently set up along the 14' wall.  I don't have much experience with setting up along the longer wall.  I have read that Dunlavy recommended it for his speakers.  However, the SCIV, SCV and SCVI that I am familiar with were non ported designs.  I think non ported designs do not suffer the same problems that ported designs do with room placement, especially when moving speakers closer to the corners of the room causing bass to be over bloated.

The Cardas room setup is meant to work in a room where the speakers are set up along the short wall, in your case the 12' wall.  You will then need to setup you speakers about 64 & 3/8" from the 12' rear wall and about 39.75" from the side walls.  That will leave you with about 64.5" between your speakers.

With that setup you will definitely have more space and not end up seated against a wall.

I can't guarantee anything, but considering you are having problems I would give it a try provided it isn't too much trouble (I hope your speakers aren't 300lbs a piece).

I hope any effort is worthwhile.

Take care,

TV

[coke]

Hi coke,

The room doesn't need to be square.  Yours being 14' x 12' will do just fine which means your speakers are currently set up along the 14' wall.  I don't have much experience with setting up along the longer wall.  I have read that Dunlavy recommended it for his speakers.  However, the SCIV, SCV and SCVI that I am familiar with were non ported designs.  I think non ported designs do not suffer the same problems that ported designs do with room placement, especially when moving speakers closer to the corners of the room causing bass to be over bloated.

The Cardas room setup is meant to work in a room where the speakers are set up along the short wall, in your case the 12' wall.  You will then need to setup you speakers about 64 & 3/8" from the 12' rear wall and about 39.75" from the side walls.  That will leave you with about 64.5" between your speakers.

With that setup you will definitely have more space and not end up seated against a wall.

I can't guarantee anything, but considering you are having problems I would give it a try provided it isn't too much trouble (I hope your speakers aren't 300lbs a piece).

I hope any effort is worthwhile.

Take care,

TV

Thanks, I'll see if I can find the time tomorrow to try it.

I've been shopping for houses and I think i might have found one.  If it works out, it will be a LOT easier to set my speakers up properly

[Nuance]

.
Thanks for taking the time to post that.  I had read it months ago but had forgotten all about it.

I forgot to mention that the room isn't square. 14'x12'

So that would only leave me 57" from the front of the speakers, assuming I sat against the wall.  Do you still think it's worth trying?

No, that's way too close.  I believe Dennis Murphy recommend no closer than 7-8 feet.  Also, forcing yourself to sit against the wall will do all kinds of nasty things to the bass response.  I don't think Cardas will work for you; your room is too small.  It may have worked with monitor speakers, but not tower Salk's.  Try the Master Set approach instead. 

Just my $0.02

[coke]

No, that's way too close.  I believe Dennis Murphy recommend no closer than 7-8 feet.  Also, forcing yourself to sit against the wall will do all kinds of nasty things to the bass response.  I don't think Cardas will work for you; your room is too small.  It may have worked with monitor speakers, but not tower Salk's.  Try the Master Set approach instead. 

Just my $0.02

You're right, it won't work.  1 wall has a door, another has a 3 windows, and the other has a closet from wall to wall.    I really only have 1 blank wall, and the door opens up onto it.  I do like experimenting with speaker placement though, even if it can't be permanent.

I created this thread thinking there may be one specific thing, such as toe in, that could be tried to eliminate the V sound. Looks like i'll just have to settle for what I have until I get a house.

[strat95]

Hi coke,

Here is the link to the info on the Cardas site.

http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area=insights&content_id=26&pagestring=Room+Setup

Please note that for this particular setup the length of the room is not specified, just that the room is a rectangle.  I do agree that your room is too close to being square and, it would be ideal if the length of the room is at least the the width + the height of the room.

Cheers,

TV

[Nuance]

You're right, it won't work.  1 wall has a door, another has a 3 windows, and the other has a closet from wall to wall.    I really only have 1 blank wall, and the door opens up onto it.  I do like experimenting with speaker placement though, even if it can't be permanent.

I created this thread thinking there may be one specific thing, such as toe in, that could be tried to eliminate the V sound. Looks like i'll just have to settle for what I have until I get a house.

There are other things you can do, sir.  Have you placed any room treatments, or used a level meter to ensure each speaker is level matched?  Reflections and slight differences in dB level between speakers can cause pretty significant issues. 

I know you said your speaker setup isn't symmetrical due to some room obstacles, but getting as symmetrical as possible will help.  You've got to do what it takes to achieve this.  Would it be possible to post a few pictures of your room?

[coke]

There are other things you can do, sir.  Have you placed any room treatments, or used a level meter to ensure each speaker is level matched?  Reflections and slight differences in dB level between speakers can cause pretty significant issues. 

I know you said your speaker setup isn't symmetrical due to some room obstacles, but getting as symmetrical as possible will help.  You've got to do what it takes to achieve this.  Would it be possible to post a few pictures of your room?

I'll try to get some pictures.  The main problem is that there is only 1 place to put my 100" screen. 

[WntrMute2]

Listen to music instead of watching that huge TV   Not helpful I know but I refuse to allow a TV in the same room as I listen to music.

[Kinger]

But then you can't watch awesome concert DVD's

[coke]

But then you can't watch awesome concert DVD's

Concert Blu-rays

Joe Banamassa right now 

[Nuance]

But then you can't watch awesome concert DVD's

Touche!  Concert Blue-Rays rock!