final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?

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Rclark


 Hello everyone, I have spent the last several months figuring out what I want to do for my first hifi. I was pretty sure I had picked everything out until I was routed to this page from the Rythmik F12G links.

 So quick cap on the proposed system: small apartment bedroom. Will treat extensively with help from accoustics forum. Will have 16 DIY basstraps (some FRK style for HF reflections) and 4 DIY "Superchunk" corner basstraps floor to ceiling all with 2" 8lb mineral wool. Already priced out, I expect to pay only slightly over $400 for all those materials including metal frame parts! Possibly DIY diffusers depending on further advice. Mass loaded vinyl and accoustic blankets for ceiling. Anyway, I have another forum to help me with that stuff but just note the room will be properly treated. Oh, forgot to mention I will be purchasing subwoofer isolators as well.

 Subs will be a pair of the GR research/rythmik 12" paper cone servo subs with the 370watt balanced output amps.  I have chosen these on a hunch that they will be even more musical and gut busting output is not a priority as long as I wish to keep my neighbors happy. Never built an enclosure but I will start here building my own sealed boxes. Fun!

 Now as I have fully chosen the subs (well, I might just choose the Rythmik 15's instead... but I probably won't, I have a feeling the GR paper 12" will be superb for my music application).

 Speakers... I was DEAD SET on the Zaph SR-71. I was sure I had found a hi resolution speaker that would work well in my small room and provide punchy midbass as well as soundstage, all that neat stuff. They are VERY highly regarded.

 But then I discovered GR's stuff (last night actually) after pondering which Rythmik sub I should build. And I was floored to discover that the drivers in the N2 and N3 are based on Adire designs. Is this true? Is the midwoofer really an Adire Extremis in new clothes?

 My concern is this: I want a speaker that can match the SR-71. I'm concerned that maybe the N2 won't provide enough punch down low, and punch at low volumes too.

 I would go with the N3 but I'm not sure I want a floorstander in my approx, let's say, 12*14 room. It says small room, but really it'll work?

 I also don't want the speaker to play too low as I will have two subs to cover 80 and below. Maybe I want sealed N3's? Or maybe the TL floorstander and I can turn off the subs at night? But maybe the N2 would work better. So confused. Help!

 Anyway, so yeah, I need to know that I'll be happy with these speakers. I listen to articulate and punchy progressive rock and also metal with very very fast double kickdrums and blastbeats. In addition I also like classical, jazz, etc, but yeah, not too worried about them performing well with these as I'm sure they will do well.  But will these N2's or N3's play the kind of rowdy music I also listen to?

 Anyway, totally excited. Moving up from a bare room with a pair of (very nice) multimedia speakers off a ten year old $20 dvd player.

ebag4

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #1 on: 4 Jun 2010, 08:39 pm »
I built these N3s for my sister and she loves them.  She is a total rocker (who listens much too loud).  She runs them without subs and is happy, I might run a sub with them if it were me, just for the really low stuff.  The bass on the N3s is very fast and punchy.

Here they are:




Best,
Ed

BTW, I have not heard the Zaphs but I have built 2.5 of Danny's designs (one was the top half of his OB 5/7 with a different brand OB woofer) and have been incredibly happy with the quality of each.

Rclark

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #2 on: 4 Jun 2010, 08:42 pm »
okay, I like :) but... smallish room? And can I cross them higher to lessen distortion without affecting them somehow? I've never heard a TL before. Honestly I'm nothing more than a very, very well read noob.

 I'm extremely hesistant on the N3 but I do wanna touch the heine.

 I'd feel safer going sealed and having an easier time getting the subs and mains to mesh since the subs will be sealed too.
 
 How's the N3 sealed?

ebag4

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #3 on: 4 Jun 2010, 08:54 pm »
The N3 isn't sealed, it is a transmission line speaker as you stated.

For what it is worth, I believe if you have control over the bass levels (e.g. via a plate amp) the "too big for the room" argument is somewhat invalid.  Sure, you have to use acoutic treaments but you are already planning to do that.  I am running Danny's V-1s in a 12.5'x10.5' room and loving it! One thing I will mention, OB bass is much better than boxed bass, especially in a small room.  OB bass loads the room differently than mompole bass, no boom, just lean and articulate.  Of course with OB bass you have to be able to move it out into the room a few feet, you may or may not have that option.  For my small office I have the ability to move the speakers out and I have found that OB designs are the way to go in my situation, YMMV.

Best of luck with your decision!

Ed

Rclark

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #4 on: 4 Jun 2010, 09:11 pm »
(edit - there are box plans on the site for a sealed N3 but it says to use as a center channel. Maybe I'd prefer these enclosures in my room?)

... Hmmmmm. Interesting.. Won't have to buy expensive stands either..

 Do the midwoofers (are they really Adire Extremis's, btw?) play the same freqs or does one play an upper range and the other play the lower range?

 Does that DIYcabinets guy make boxes for these? ... Also thinking about trying to build the speakers and subs myself in mdf and then try to make a "piano reflective" type paint surface on them in some cool color like blueberry.. Then again a nice woodgrain might be the ticket.

 The kits are roughly the same price as the SR-71. Guess they'd be slightly cheaper. But they use SEAS Prestige reed paper 7" and a Seas Prestige textile dome tweeter. Supposed to be pretty nice. These outperform you think?

ebag4

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #5 on: 4 Jun 2010, 09:23 pm »
I misuderstood your comment regarding N3 sealed earlier, apologies.  Here is a thread by a gentleman who built the N3 sealed for use as his main L&R:

http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=79769.0

Since I have not heard the sealed version I will defer to those that have.  I have read (but couldn't find it) where Danny has stated that the sealed version is identical to the TL version but just doesn't play as low.  This may assist with the sub integration, again I will defer to those that have tried it.

Best,
Ed

S Clark

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Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #6 on: 4 Jun 2010, 09:25 pm »
None of Danny's drivers are copies of the Adire Extemis, but the M-130X and the M-165X both utilize the XBL^2 system and have very linear BL over a long throw of the cone.  Danny can fill you in much better and I'm sure he'll be along to give more detail. 

Rclark

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #7 on: 4 Jun 2010, 09:34 pm »
Oh that's just beautiful, even if they are just related drivers. I had long planned on building a car stereo and just haven't yet got around to it (wanna do the home system first) but I have two unused Adire Brahma MKII 15's sitting here right next to me.
 
 I'm in Washington and actually visited Adire a couple times when they were in business. Nice guys they were. Not sure why they quit, seemed like they had nothing but respect, my Brahma's are considered the sonic equivalent of JL W7's or perhaps even better.

 Anyway, lol, I was gonna see if I could use the servo amps with them  (and save money) but alas no. Apparently it's a specific design in the subwoofer that works with the servo. Anyway I really don't think I could afford to power them otherwise, they're like dual 2ohm or something like that.

 But I digress.

 Thank you for your input, it's further solidifying my decision. However, another thing to consider is that the SR-71's are considered extremely non-fatiguing and users claim to enjoy listening to them all day long. This is what I want. Are the N2/N3 as friendly on the ears?

cujobob

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Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #8 on: 4 Jun 2010, 10:06 pm »
The N2X are extremely easy on the ears...the tweeter used (Neo 3) is simply incredible and the woofers play really well to the point they crossover.

I don't think you'd regret going with a pair of N3s.  Danny's crossover work is also topnotch.  I own two pairs of N2X and a pair of OB7 (plus an OB servo sub)...all are tremendous values and products.  His speakers have great off-axis response and are very neutral.  When I first listened to a pair of N2X, I was floored...really never expected to get that level of sound quality at that pricepoint.  The N2X is not the most efficient speaker and will have some trouble with ridiculous volumes in big rooms, I'd assume...but the N3 can do everything except the really low bass well.

Danny Richie

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #9 on: 4 Jun 2010, 11:07 pm »
Quote
So quick cap on the proposed system: small apartment bedroom. Will treat extensively with help from accoustics forum. Will have 16 DIY basstraps (some FRK style for HF reflections) and 4 DIY "Superchunk" corner basstraps floor to ceiling all with 2" 8lb mineral wool. Already priced out, I expect to pay only slightly over $400 for all those materials including metal frame parts! Possibly DIY diffusers depending on further advice. Mass loaded vinyl and accoustic blankets for ceiling. Anyway, I have another forum to help me with that stuff but just note the room will be properly treated.


That was you best decision so far. Most people build everything else first and never really get around to really treating the room. The room is as big of a part of the system as everything else.

Great choice on subs too. There is nothing on the market that will give you the sound quality of those servo subs, and in particular the 12" paper cone version that I sell.

Quote
Speakers... I was DEAD SET on the Zaph SR-71. I was sure I had found a hi resolution speaker that would work well in my small room and provide punchy midbass as well as soundstage, all that neat stuff. They are VERY highly regarded.

Highly regarded? That's a head scratcher. Where, on HD Guide?

In all honesty I'd put them a little bit below my A/V-1's.

http://www.gr-research.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=146

The drivers in that kit are not bad. The woofer has a little too heavy of a moving mass and a lot of break up that the second order crossover that it uses is not likely to be eliminating. See below:



So there is likely still going to be some low level ringing going on.

I am not sure what the thought was on this one either, but it uses an iron core inductor for the woofers.



You can get away with that just fine in a design where the woofer never plays over the 200Hz range, but not something playing up to a tweeter. That slug will cause significant smearing of the vocal range and take away a lot of resolution. It really is perplexing to see a decent woofer used then cost cut on crossover parts.  :nono:

Quote
But then I discovered GR's stuff (last night actually) after pondering which Rythmik sub I should build. And I was floored to discover that the drivers in the N2 and N3 are based on Adire designs. Is this true? Is the midwoofer really an Adire Extremis in new clothes?

Two of the woofers that we offer use the XBL^. This does make them more linear and technically lowers the distortion some in the lower regions. However, in practice, I have not found any more than a very subtle difference in the sound quality of my XBL^ verse non-XBL^ woofers that are the same. The XBL^ motor version does give up some sensitivity though. There are a lot of other factors that determine just how good the driver will sound.

Also, if you want to integrate a sub, then the lower the crossover point to the sub, the easier and better it will integrate. For instance it is easier to integrate N3's than N2X's of the sealed N3S. That doesn't mean that you can't get them to integrate well with the others, but it is easier with the N3 as they are -3db down near 40Hz. As crossover points go up then placement and distance from the speaker to the sub are a much greater issue. 

The N3 will also give you higher sensitivity that will make it much easier to hit any higher SPL levels should the need arise.

The recommendation to go with one of our open baffle designs is also a good one. A pair of V-1's, V-2's, or Super-V's take everything to another level. You just have to be able to get them at least 3 feet or more out into the room. Info on those models will be on the web site soon. For now there are a lot of threads on them here on AC.  I'll post some links if needed.

corndog71

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Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #10 on: 4 Jun 2010, 11:39 pm »
I can't really speak for Danny's speaker kits as I haven't heard those tweeters.

I do have several of the AV123 speakers that Danny designed and they sound fantastic. 

Based on my pair of X-CS speakers which are sealed, I would recommend the N3S kit in a similar cabinet.  Mine make excellent monitors.  Granted mine have the larger midwoofers than those in the N3 kit so you may not get the same bass that I'm getting.  I'm sure they still sound terrific.



I also built a tubular cabinet for the single servo sub and it is by far one of the best investments I've ever made.  This will get you the bass you're looking for and then some!  It's never boomy unless it's supposed to be boomy.  At a moderate volume you can barely tell it's working.  You just hear clean, tight, musical bass.   But when it needs to be, it's a beast!  Throw in a movie and crank it up and it will vibrate the building! :eyebrows:



Another alternative for room treatments is ATS Acoustics.  Very reasonably priced, fast shipping and work really well at taming room reflections.  Even my girlfriend noticed the improvement after I mounted them at the first reflection points.  It doesn't hurt that she picked the pattern. :wink:

I've never heard Zaph speakers so I can't really comment on them.  I'm definitely biased towards Danny's speakers.  I've owned several other quality brands but I just find these to be a seriously great value for the money being spent.  They are very competitive. 

And don't skimp on the little extras like No Rez and Platinum bypasses.  They nudge any speaker up several notches by improving dynamics, soundstaging, and lower level detail.

Rclark

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #11 on: 5 Jun 2010, 10:03 am »
 Yeah I really just cannot wait to hear just a really really nice system in a completely treated room. I know it's gonna be pretty special. I'm aware of just how powerful the increase in utter sound quality is when you treat the room. That's why that stuff is so expensive. It's worth it.

 That last part intrigues me there about the N3 integrating better. 40 hz is something even my multimedia sub can do loudly so I imagine a pair of 6.5's in a sweet tl are gonna meet that level acceptably. Having the sub meet up low does sound good. My only concern is will it work in my room? Can I cross the N3 up higher if need be?

 I'd worry that I'm just stifling the speakers. I mean, if the N3 is the best option for my room (I'll check into that V business in a moment) out of the N2x N3 options then by all means I'm for it. I have a bit of nostalgia for Adire audio and I'd be hugely interested in having mains with XBL^ technology in them. Hugely interested. And that with what apparently is among the subwoofers to have in the GR servo design, I think I'll be quite happy with that.

 Time to set out the timeline, budget it all, and read as much on enclosure building and finishing as I can. I think I want to paint both mains and subs the same color and go for a piano finish. I had anticipated, a roughly 7K total system cost (treatments included), but by going completly DIY (except of the amp, cd player, etc - YET) including room treatments the entire system cost will be around $3200-3500. Not too bad to have an entire hifi and full room treatment for that I think. I was gonna have to spend $2500 just on room treatment if I wanted it done right until I discovered you could even DIY that stuff too. I've got that $2500 down to roughly $500 and that 500 includes even more traps. Good ones too. 8lb mineral wool is as effective as 705 and it's fibers are non toxic. And it's WAY cheap.

 On the subs, um, Danny sir, I'm not gonna want downfiring, could you whip up some easy to read noob friendly plans for front firing and sealed, and preferably the most optimal enclosure size rather than the WAF version? Would that be possible? I want to be able to see the woofers, I think downfiring subs look like trash pails. Where's the pedal on this thing? Not to mention, why would I want my wavelengths piling up around the enclosure legs? I'm no fluids engineer but I imagine it has to introduce some type of distortion.

 Can you give me also some more detailed impressions of what listening to a pair of your servo subs is going to be like? All I've read so far is that Rythmik just slaughters SQ and in any Rythmik "vs *" type threads I've read they do very favorably. I've also read plenty (and it makes sense) that yours is the best driver as well (I honestly, after all I've read, I can't wait to hear them).

 So anyway, yeah, but mostly if I can just have verified by you that the N3 is the superior choice in my room size over the N2?


......

 And to Corndog, lol those are some sweet looking speakers, are those 7" woofers? I'm going to have to post up a picture of what I'm listening on once I start my build but just so everyone can laugh. And no I won't skimp, I'll get whichever speaker is best with Sonicaps and all that. I want to be mindblown when I finally have everything running.

BYOB

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #12 on: 5 Jun 2010, 01:22 pm »
Hello Rdclark
I just built N3s as mains and am totally happy. I think they sound fantastic and was impressed how big they sound with a sub. I find listening to music much more enjoyable with N3s than in my home theater with AV123 Rockets but those still rock on movies. I used the Parts express boxes (.75 cube) and filled with vinyl floor tile, they are like rocks. Thanks to Danny for the recomendation.







HT cOz

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #13 on: 5 Jun 2010, 03:23 pm »
if you are going to buy servo subs then the V1 would make a lot of sense. Much of the cost of that kit is driven by the servo subs. 

I would also recemend a flat pack unless you have a lot of tools and wood working experiense.

As far as finish, if you like the black look check out rustoleum epoxy appliance finish.

Rclark

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #14 on: 6 Jun 2010, 05:40 am »
 
 Yeah I think something like the V1 (from what little I can find here) is going to be a little too robust as a small room speaker and more in line with something I'd put in the living room. Which I want to do, I mean, I want to build something big and bad but it's gonna be a little too much I think in my room.

 Hey BYOB can you give me a more detailed description of what the N3 sounds like in those enclosures? And what's your listening area like, size wize?

 If I do the N3 I'll probably do the full TL but who knows?

BYOB

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #15 on: 6 Jun 2010, 12:01 pm »
My N3s are not fully broken in but thus far they sound great with what I call a clean sound. I am not very good at reviews and rate speakers like I rate wine....I like it. Not jammy, fruity, toasty, bright, airy, chocolaty…just simply…good stuff!

The base is very snappy, not too deep but definitely impactful. I was shocked how well they filled a 18' X 20' office and even seemed to play louder than my huge Rocket 850's (could be due to being more efficient). The Rockets seemed veiled in comparison almost like a blanket was covering them and when I switched to N3 the blanket was gone. In comparison to a full range driver I was toying with that was too bright for my taste the N3 is just right. Good clean, enjoyable sound.

Hope this helps, not a lot of adjectives but I like it.  :thumb:

Nick77

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #16 on: 6 Jun 2010, 01:20 pm »
I just heard these at the Lone Star AudioFest and couldnt hardly believe the hifi sound these were producing. Later i found out they were not exactly N3's but a speaker Danny is working on for commerical offering. I dont know how different they are from drivers in the N3 but these things were produceing very nice bass and i had to ask the Virtue host if a sub was being impoyed. Point being these sounded great even without a sub. These were very "easy" to listen to. Danny would have to pipe in on the differences.



Rclark

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #17 on: 7 Jun 2010, 02:10 am »
My N3s are not fully broken in but thus far they sound great with what I call a clean sound. I am not very good at reviews and rate speakers like I rate wine....I like it. Not jammy, fruity, toasty, bright, airy, chocolaty…just simply…good stuff!

The base is very snappy, not too deep but definitely impactful. I was shocked how well they filled a 18' X 20' office and even seemed to play louder than my huge Rocket 850's (could be due to being more efficient). The Rockets seemed veiled in comparison almost like a blanket was covering them and when I switched to N3 the blanket was gone. In comparison to a full range driver I was toying with that was too bright for my taste the N3 is just right. Good clean, enjoyable sound.

Hope this helps, not a lot of adjectives but I like it.  :thumb:



 Sitting here with a nice Zinfandel myself  :thumb:.  Think Danny will come back around to answer my last questions? I'd hate to PM him, I'm sure he's busy.

 If he can confirm that the N3 will be great for a ... 12ish by 14ish room (I need to measure soon so I can know exactly how everything's gonna fit) then I think I have found my speakers and can officially stop looking and start buying parts.

 And Nick77, thanks for that shot, gives me a good idea of just black... looks like it would fit in well on the Death Star.

HT cOz

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #18 on: 7 Jun 2010, 02:28 am »
Great choice.  Another good product for painting is this kit of paint finepaintsofeurope.com/dutch_door_kit.aspx  Especially if you like glossy.  This paint is the paint to use.  I have this kit to paint my front door and it is very nice.

BYOB

Re: final decisions to make: Zaph ZR-71 or GR N2 or N3?
« Reply #19 on: 7 Jun 2010, 02:56 am »
they should easily fill that room no problem. the PE pre-fab boxes were very easy to work with almost like when I was a kid building models. I am shocked how well the deep notes hit with the small sealed version but if you can build standard N3 you should be very happy.