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Bob,LOL, I accept that you're quoting Keith Howard out of context and maybe he isn't a complete moron. But when I read, "When I laboriously measured my LP collection 30 years ago, I found a significant proportion had minimum radii down to 58mm, which I subsequently recommended as a realistic figure to use in alignment calculations." I gotta wonder...What are you going to do, change the inner null to 58mm? If you change the calculation for the center of grooves to include 58mm as the lead out start, then you'd have to move it (center) in 1.1625mm. neo
Hmmmmm.....I don't see how my post is so controversial. Your last sentence above is 100% correct. That's why I do it that way. Wayner doesn't agree. I explain an easy and precise way to align a rounded body cartridge (or any cartridge, for that matter) and his response is that it is BS. No explanation why it is BS....just that it is BS. Or maybe the explanation is there, and I simply don't understand it.he says:The most critical factor of any cartridge alignment is offset angle, shit they all have to be on the nat's ass, but the fact is, you can't possibly see even 1/2 degree of error with the human eye. Overhang is the easy part of the equation. If you have a cartridge that the stylus is skewed from the body, I'd send it back. If you can see it with your naked eye, there is serious quality control problems with the manufacturer. I don't buy any of this for one minute.First of all......I am not talking about a skewed stylus, whatever that is. I specifically and clearly said cantilever. It is not unusual for them not to be set 100% perfect in the cartridge body. Hence the reason for aligning the cantilever and not the cartridge body. If cantilever is off by a small amt, and you can't see it, why would you wanna set the offset with the cartridge body? That method assumes there is no cantilever build error, and if error is present you are 100% guaranteed to obtain an incorrect offset angle!The Kuzma method I use makes no such assumption. It only assumes that the stylus is attached properly to the cantilever. It will yield good offset angle results even if the cantilever is off....by any amt, small or large. If you sight down the line properly and use a good light and magnifier lens, it really is easy to adjust things such that the line and cantilever blend and become one. Doesn't this mean that that the offset angle is correct? Conversely, there is no such assurance when using cartridge body, if the cantilever is not set 100% perfectly. So how is using the cartridge body better? What am I not understanding here, Wayner?Also, trying to achieve a cartridge body parallel to grid lines is much harder to see and accomplish than my cantilever / line merge method. I have done it both ways. Unless someone can explain otherwise, the cantilever alignment method just makes more sense to me.The proof is in the pudding. I always get phenomenal sonic results very quickly when using the Kuzma setup method. This has not been the case when trying to align the cartridge body with my DB Systems protractor.Additionally, and no offense Wayner, but I have much more confidence in a method recommended by Franc Kuzma -- who in my estimation is a genius in the analog world -- than by you. I have owned several of his products, all excellent. I think my current Stogi Reference is an absolutely killer arm......way better than the SME V that I previously owned. So based on my direct experience with his gear, I would say he knows his stuff!
Hmmmmm.....I don't see how my post is so controversial. Your last sentence above is 100% correct. That's why I do it that way. Conversely, there is no such assurance when using cartridge body, if the cantilever is not set 100% perfectly. So how is using the cartridge body better? What am I not understanding here, Wayner?Also, trying to achieve a cartridge body parallel to grid lines is much harder to see and accomplish than my cantilever / line merge method. I have done it both ways. Unless someone can explain otherwise, the cantilever alignment method just makes more sense to me.The proof is in the pudding. I always get phenomenal sonic results very quickly when using the Kuzma setup method. This has not been the case when trying to align the cartridge body with my DB Systems protractor.Additionally, and no offense Wayner, but I have much more confidence in a method recommended by Franc Kuzma -- who in my estimation is a genius in the analog world -- than by you. I have owned several of his products, all excellent. I think my current Stogi Reference is an absolutely killer arm......way better than the SME V that I previously owned. So based on my direct experience with his gear, I would say he knows his stuff!
Unfortunately, John takes the put your head in the sand approach, by telling folks to just stick the cartridge on the tone arm and be done with it. Well, that's one approach.
I enjoy the technical aspects of cartridge alignment, but at the same time, I have to be a realist. We are dealing with microscopic stuff here. We can't really see what's going on, so we have to use our knowledge and skills to get to these places we really can't see.When we start getting to the point where we recommend things like aligning the cantilever, we have lost subjectivity. Why? Because for most of use, we can't see it. Even with scopes and magnifying glasses and things like that. Then you have to ask yourself, is the stylus truely in the correct mounting on the cantilever? It's too small and too impracticable to deal with.
Sunnydaze,Afraid it's not that straightforward. A lot depends on the cart and the internal cantilever alignment and relationship to the suspension, coils etc. After all, the angle of the cantilever to the body is variable, at least to some degree. It is usually hand made MC's that have cantilevers out of alignment on a more permanent basis. I agree with Wayner in so much as sending back any cartridge with a skewed cantilever. A manufacturer might tell you it makes no difference, just align the cantilever. Maybe in a practical sense it doesn't matter that much, but in an ultimate sense it does. The cartridge fixing screws should be set perpendicular to the angle of the cantilever, when centered.
I have added a few of my own tricks to make things even easier and more accurate:(1) On the protractor, I put a pin hole at the two null point cross-hairs. This means less eye strain and makes it real easy to get the stylus in perfect position every time. Just drop the stylus in the vicinity, and then gently move the platter / protractor to and fro till stylus drops into hole. Bingo! (Before starting I remove all bias and use minimal tracking force to keep cantilever from twisting and flattening)(2) I also lay a bright mag light on the platter shining on the work. This, and a simple magnifying lens, makes it very easy to see relationship between cantilever and black line, and always results in very accurate and quick setup.
Thanks for the input. So let me ask you this.....If the cantilever is 100% perfect and straight, why is cantilever alignment no good...or at least inferior to cartridge body alignment? Unless I am mistaken, this is what Wayner is saying.
I really don't see this discussion as something that will scare off newbies. Many have heard the potential of a modest TT set-up. Even if it doesn't have the nth degree of resolution, it usually sounds more natural and enjoyable. That is, if it's set up decently. So, while they are reading something about the fine points, and a good lively discussion at that, they will probably realize that there really is something more here than putting a disc in the tray or downloading. Sure, you can have your dealer set up your TT. But all this effort and discussion is for a reason - just how damn good it can sound.
Just my opinion, but a pin hole in the protractor is not a good idea. Having gone that route myself in the past I feel that:1) chances are that the cantilever will be skewed to one side or the other depending on which side of the hole you are dropping in from, resullting in less than ideal alignment and
2) one false move and you might be ripping your stylus/cantilever off.
Sunnydaze, I think we agree on most issues, and I think the problem might be that I love MM cartridges and you might love MC cartridges. MC styluses are right out there in the open on many designs and for the average guy, they might be able to line up the cantilever with some grid lines.My MMs are realy close to the record surface. You just can't see under there to look at the stylus or cantilever. Is this the case? I guess If you can do your Kuzma method, then good, I can't.
If 92 degrees (which I can't see easily) is the reference, then anything > 92 will increase the treble, < 92 will increase the bass, your VTA adjustment would just become your tone control until everything's balance.
So setting VTA/SRA is really about getting your cartridge alignment angle in synch with the treble ridges in the groove. The "perception" of more or less bass is really just one of achieving more or less alignment with the treble ridges in the groove. What you need to listen for is a cleaner treble with a more defined transient and no smear. Once you have that set you have optomized the angle, at least for that test record.
