Salk Sound in a small business: Speakers for a medium sized coffee house?

nyc_paramedic · « **on:** 1 Jun 2010, 04:52 pm »

Was going to email Jim directly but I figured some folks in the circle might have suggestions as well.

I'm in the midst of research concerning opening a medium sized cafe/coffee house in New York City. One of the things on the list --besides excellent coffee-- was what kind of speaker system to implement and how. I don't have exact measurements on the space, but it's deep with high ceilings of approximately 15' to 18' feet high. My first thought was to look at the smaller Song surrounds, but I also have a couple of random questions bouncing around in my head, such as...

Will the Salks sound poor if placed near the upper corners of the space? If yes, what can be done to ameliorate that? Do I use arms to keep a distance form the walls?

Since sound staging will be non-existent, and some songs being played will have voices/instruments panned to the very left or right, am I right to assume that playing music in mono will be the right choice.

If I have more that 2 speakers (4, 6, or eight), and taking account lengths of speaker wire and impedance, how should I go about wiring them? Series, parallel, or some combination of both. The amp will most likely be a used Adcom from Audiogon.

Anything else I should be considering?

Big Red Machine · « **Reply #1 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 04:59 pm »

Here's an idea. A local Audiophile I know also owns a local restaurant. He always has a system set up in the dining room with background music playing and continuously changes out the gear as he also sells Audiospace gear, etc. The last time I was there a pair of small Usher floorstanders and some tubed integrateds were hooked up. It makes a nice atmosphere as it cozy's up the space. Why not put some chairs in the sweetspot and put in a nice little integrated with some Songtowers as an attraction to keep people hanging around for more eats?

IMO surrounds up high on brackets imply that it is okay to talk over the music and not seriously listen, but get your coffee and get out. Now, of course you will not be frequented by Audiophools only, but you'd be surprised what enlightenment you could bring to some folks.

jtwrace · « **Reply #2 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 05:02 pm »

Maybe Jim S will hook you up with a pair for demo purposes. You're in NYC after all....

nyc_paramedic · « **Reply #3 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 05:18 pm »

Quote from: Big Red Machine on 1 Jun 2010, 04:59 pm

Here's an idea. A local Audiophile I know also owns a local restaurant. He always has a system set up in the dining room with background music playing and continuously changes out the gear as he also sells Audiospace gear, etc. The last time I was there a pair of small Usher floorstanders and some tubed integrateds were hooked up. It makes a nice atmosphere as it cozy's up the space. Why not put some chairs in the sweetspot and put in a nice little integrated with some Songtowers as an attraction to keep people hanging around for more eats?

I appreciate your audiophile enthusiasm, but having floor standers setup in a cafe might take up valuable floorspace. Also, how can someone truly enjoy the sweet spot when other customers are conversing with one another? As far as eats, we will only be selling small plates and baked goods --all homemade, i.e., you need to have table turnover.

Quote from: Big Red Machine on 1 Jun 2010, 04:59 pm

IMO surrounds up high on brackets imply that it is okay to talk over the music and not seriously listen, but get your coffee and get out. Now, of course you will not be frequented by Audiophools only, but you'd be surprised what enlightenment you could bring to some folks.

The majority of my music listening *is* a very intimate, solitary experience with my media and gear. There is nothing wrong with sometimes having music as the background; sure as hell beats having a bunch of televisions on.

Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate your idea. Since this will be a community space I could see having an "Audiophile night" where folks can come in and listen to a system setup somewhere in the cafe. My original post was focusing more on the day to day music.

srb · « **Reply #4 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 06:29 pm »

Understanding that this is the Salk Signature Sound circle and not trying to divert any sales to Jim, I can't help but think that the superior Salk quality sound may be nullified when masked by the noise level from multiple sources in a cafe setting.

I also would use a mono feed for a better mix of sound no matter where you are sitting.

Speakers in a corner location (intersection of two walls and the ceiling) has always resulted in a boomy and muddy sound everywhere I have heard that setup. I would install them at a 7' - 8' height, angled slightly down. The corner of two walls may be acceptable. You could always experiment using a 7' - 8' stepladder before you commit to permanent mounting.

You will need to use some mixture of series and parallel wiring, unless you buy a multichannel amplifier. Usually installations that involve long speaker runs are wired with a specialty distribution amplifier that has 70V transformer outputs with a 70V transformer at each speaker.

You didn't mention what source you will be using. If it is a computer source, an alternative would be to use pairs of powered speakers such as the Audioengine 5 ($350/pair), each pair fed by an Apple Airport Express (~$60 used). In this setup, you would need one AC connection per pair of speakers and a speaker wire between the pair. The only question with this scenario is how to get a mono signal to the active speaker.

Steve

Bill Baker · « **Reply #5 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 07:05 pm »

I don't think sound quality is of a concern here but as others have mentioned, it is the setting of the atmosphere that will could help business. Small black plastic speakers up in corners does noting for setting a comfortable atmosphere and you may be surpprised by how often comfortable customers come back.
I put together a nice small tube system for a smoke shop with a lounge my first year in business and many comments were generated about how nice of an idea it was.
It's all about the profile (of course you mst have good customer service and coffee as well).

jrg4785 · « **Reply #6 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 07:57 pm »

Just curious, do you have a neighborhood picked out?

nyc_paramedic · « **Reply #7 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 08:10 pm »

Quote from: jrg4785 on 1 Jun 2010, 07:57 pm

Just curious, do you have a neighborhood picked out?

Manhattan or the Riverdale section of the Bronx.

nyc_paramedic · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 08:17 pm »

Quote from: srb on 1 Jun 2010, 06:29 pm

Understanding that this is the Salk Signature Sound circle....

The Salks came to mind because if I'm going to be busting my hump for 12-16 hours a day I want to really enjoy what's playing. Also, the midrange is clean and very detailed.

The source will be a low powered Linux machine running MPD and playing FLAC files. The machine is approximately the size of a CD jewel case, and about 3 of those stacked high. It can accept a mini-PCI wifi card thus facilitating placement just about anywhere in the store.

The powered speakers is an idea to consider, especially if the funds don't initially allow for a Salk budget.

jrg4785 · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 08:39 pm »

Good luck. I'll be a customer if you end up on the uws.

srb · « **Reply #10 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 08:49 pm »

If you decide to go with the passive Salks, I still think you need to get them above the height of people sitting, so that everyone will be able to hear the high frequencies. The Song Surround I in a striking Curly Cherry veneer would look (and sound) very nice.

If you decide to go the active speaker route, you could always get the Audioengine 5 in carmelized Bamboo (+$100/pair) which also have an upscale look.

Steve

nyc_paramedic · « **Reply #11 on:** 1 Jun 2010, 08:54 pm »

Quote from: jrg4785 on 1 Jun 2010, 08:39 pm

Good luck. I'll be a customer if you end up on the uws.

Thanks. There's tons of work to do, not to mention keeping my full time job the ambulance.

decal · « **Reply #12 on:** 2 Jun 2010, 01:04 am »

Don't blow a lot of money on this.Most people don't give a rats ass about music in a public place.Conversation,loud and lots of it,is king!!Just my opinion,humble as it may be.

sfox7076 · « **Reply #13 on:** 2 Jun 2010, 01:06 am »

Try the whole in ceiling deals. Paradigms would work well. Salk is the cream of the crop, but this doesn't call for that.

mfsoa · « **Reply #14 on:** 2 Jun 2010, 01:48 am »

I would seriously consider extensive room treatments - not so much for better sound but to drown the din.

I'm no fine diner but I heard that many restaurant reviews are now including noise levels as an integral part of the experience.

I can recall eating out and not being able to understand the person sitting across from me. After an hour my head was ringing - someone dropped a tray of silverware in the back and it was painful, literally. People were literally shouting to be heard over all the other people who were shouting to be heard over all the other people who were shouting to be heard over all the...

I was thinking that for $200 of GIK panels the entire experience would be improved significantly for every patron that walks in, forever. What a bargain!

Best of luck and be sure to let us know if/when/where this happens

-Mike

nyc_paramedic · « **Reply #15 on:** 2 Jun 2010, 01:50 am »

Quote from: mfsoa on 2 Jun 2010, 01:48 am

I would seriously consider extensive room treatments....

I already thought of that and it's on the list.

I appreciate all the info so far.

nyc_paramedic · « **Reply #16 on:** 2 Jun 2010, 01:59 am »

Quote from: decal on 2 Jun 2010, 01:04 am

Don't blow a lot of money on this.Most people don't give a rats ass about music in a public place.Conversation,loud and lots of it,is king!!Just my opinion,humble as it may be.

I beg to differ. People can appreciate something even if they don't consciously realize it. They don't have to be audiophiles to appreciate natural, non-fatiguing music. They don't have to know, care, or even notice what those panels (aka Real Traps) are to realize that they can comfortably have coffee for a long while without having to yell at one another.

As with most things in life, the Devil --or God-- is in all those little details. That's why I'm considering Salks.

bummrush · « **Reply #17 on:** 2 Jun 2010, 02:06 am »

Good sound in a area is good sound,i think you are definitely on the right path,how many times have you been to a place ,and the sound is delegated to the least of the owners priorities when it shound be near the top, 9 of 10 have H S sound when they could havegreat sound,it totally ups the experience.

mfsoa · « **Reply #18 on:** 2 Jun 2010, 02:15 am »

If speaker drivers are within reach, kid's hands will find them.

My brother had all of the tweeters in his store pushed in by these little horrors, and the parents took absolutely no responsibility for the damage.

Fortunately B&W stepped up and saved the day

-Mike

jsalk · « **Reply #19 on:** 2 Jun 2010, 03:41 am »

Obvious bias aside, I have often wondered why restaurants, bars and coffee houses always have such bad sound. I often thought how nice it would be if you could just once go to a place where the music, even though not the focal point, sounded as it should. While many people would perhaps not notice, I know I would. And I would tend to choose a place like this if I had the option. Unfortunately, I don't.

Taking this one step farther (and admittedly to the absurd), could "Sound by Salk" be a promotional tool for public accommodations? Never mind...just thinking out loud...

- Jim