[hifitommy]

and especially so when it turns out not to be true or youre tooting your own horn.  on some of the forums, there are implications that they are on the take. 

thats not likely.  they do a gret job and i assure you, you will miss them if they go away. 

as for awards and the recommended coponents list, they are published WAY too often and just take up space that might be better used for new comment on equipment.

oh, its nice when one of your components make a list like that, like my spendor s3/5s did but thats not forever and i already knew they were good and didnt need validation.  nor did i run out and replace them the minute they fell off the list or were updated. 

you also wont see me run to buy remixmastered versions of music i already own on vinyl, cd, or any other format.  i may end up with some of that if something wears out or gets damaged or stolen. 

so lets not be so quck to criticise or insult the publications we love and need.  if you dont need them, look elsewwhere.

[jimdgoulding]

Good post, Tommy.  We should co-author a JAZZ fiends Circle.  Tommy been collecting long as me.  And I agree with what you've written regards TAS.  Something I would like to add about Golden Ear Awards is that this is a place where reviewers can bring products to the attention of readers that will not get a full review in the magazine for whatever the reason.

Harry Pearson recently had praise for a designer who sells direct.  SS, feel free to chime in here if I'm all wet.  I think Harry, as the founder of TAS, can do what he wants to do in his column with respect for whatever the publisher and/or owners' aim happens to be.  I beleive that Harry said more would follow at a later date about the designer's product.   I'm interested to see if that translates to a full review. 

I think TAS has to come to terms with the idea that more and more people in our hobby are discounting their absolute product objectivity in a world of innovation by smaller, lesser known designers.  I've just returned from the Lone Star Audio Fest and heard first hand and met the designers of products that are mind blowing world class good!  Yet, it seems, that TAS seems to rotate new product models from their advertisers first and foremost, or feature those with a budget to become one.  Dealers advertise in TAS, too, many times featuring the very same products.  Whadda we got here?  A galldang conspiracy?  With respect, that may be a service to somebody alright, but having heard what I heard this weekend, it's become tiresome to me.  It has for quite some time, truth be told.

Permit me to give you an example.  We all know about the work of GR Research and AudioKinesis here tho both brought new speakers to LSAF that are going to put them more squarely on the map.  But dig this, one of the exhibitors is a professional electrical engineer from the Neatherlands residing in Fort Worth, TX who makes electrostatic speakers and is in the process of making a tranformerless DC to amp model.  He can make them as large as the big Sound Labs or as small as is feasible for a full range stat.  At the customer's behest.  His alluring sounding and a large model, the ESL0.5, is $3995.00.  He designs electronics for them, also, like SandersSoundSystems:  www.crescendo-systems.com
 
That's just one.  Jumping Cactus featured speakers in aluminum enclosures like YG Acoustics that seemed to have no coloration to the sound at all.  I also have high hopes for the impressive little Lighter Note pre amp whose notes somehow made digital sound less like digital- www.buildanamp.com.  If TAS had had a reviewer on site, that reviewer would likely have been as enthusiastic as I am.  The Golden Ear Awards page would be jumping out the magazine!  I mean really, who wants to read about another B&W speaker.

Hats off to Tone Audio, A$$A, Enjoy The Music, 6 Moons and PF0, et al for giving people seriously interested in better sound news we can use.  Ya'll shoulda been there.  Of course, TAS should have been, too, or be square.  Absolutely.

[jtwrace]

Permit me to give you an example.  We all know about the work of GR Research and AudioKinesis here tho both brought new speakers that are going to put them more squarely on the map.  But dig this, one of the exhibitors was a professional electrical engineer from the Neatherlands residing in Fort Worth, TX who makes electrostatic speakers and is in the process of making a tranformerless DC to amp model.  He can make them as large as the big Sound Labs or as small as is feasible for a full range stat.  At the customer's behest.  His alluring sounding and a large model, the ESL0.5, is $3995.00.  He designs electronics for them, also, aka SandersSoundSystems:  www.crescendo-systems.com
 

Are you saying that Crescendo did the design for Roger Sanders? 

[jimdgoulding]

Are you saying that Crescendo did the design for Roger Sanders?

No.  Did it read like that?  Again, no.  Designs for them, I meant his own speakers like Sanders does for his.  Oh, just caught on.  I said aka, which I changed.  Thanks.

[FullRangeMan]

and especially so when it turns out not to be true or youre tooting your own horn.  on some of the forums, there are implications that they are on the take. 

thats not likely.  they do a gret job and i assure you, you will miss them if they go away. 

as for awards and the recommended coponents list, they are published WAY too often and just take up space that might be better used for new comment on equipment.

oh, its nice when one of your components make a list like that, like my spendor s3/5s did but thats not forever and i already knew they were good and didnt need validation.  nor did i run out and replace them the minute they fell off the list or were updated. 

you also wont see me run to buy remixmastered versions of music i already own on vinyl, cd, or any other format.  i may end up with some of that if something wears out or gets damaged or stolen. 

so lets not be so quck to criticise or insult the publications we love and need.  if you dont need them, look elsewwhere.

I see your point is OK.   Iam complaint about today TAS compared to the old TAS from the past, where the cultural articles were very hi level, not as today all gear are good, and the reader have to pay for it, the price is not hi indeed.   Surely there is great guys in TAS, but it is the final result that counts.
TAS could become a online free magazine, as PFO, SoundStage etc... but if I had to pay I want more than they offer, a paper magazine have short space for photos, do not allows zoom, copy etc
Regards, Gustavo

[werd]

Well put.  I would hope that anyone in the market for a piece of gear would read everything they can get their hands on, and spend some time auditioning whatever component they are planning to spend their hard earned cash on.

Even the best reviews are only part of the story.  Where I always get great information on the various forums is when owners start talking about potential glitches with a component, long term reliability, etc and also which features the consumer responds to and does not.

Back in the old days, we only had a few magazines.  Hopefully the extra information has helped all of you to find gear more to your liking.  And if we were able to help in any way, that's what keeps me doing my job.

[/b]

Yes, i guess the idea here is to find the reviewer that identifies with your taste, and here lies the problem,
this can take a long time to figure out who to trust and not trust to do your homework for you. Once you do though they become invaluable, in terms of saving time and money.

[TONEPUB]

Hats off to Tone Audio, A$$A, Enjoy The Music, 6 Moons and PF0, et al for giving people seriously interested in better sound news we can use.  Ya'll shoulda been there.  Of course, TAS should have been, too, or be square.  Absolutely.

Thanks for the kind words, but I think the bigger point is that there is SO MUCH gear, none of us can cover it all.  And rather than take the point of "who's the industry leader" and who isn't, I see us more as different channels on the cable box.  If you really like HiFi, chances are you'll probably check them all out, pick and choose what helps you out.

I think we all have a different focus and a different perspective. 

And I agree with Tommy in the sense that just because a product you enjoy didn't get an award, that doesn't mean it's any less valid.  We bristled at doing awards for a while and didn't hand any out our first year because we felt we hadn't reviewed enough gear for that to be valid.

That's one of the toughest part of writing a review of a new version of a product as well.  You have to temper your enthusiasm for the new version, yet still respect the old too.

[boead]

A big mistake that any audio mag in high circulation can make is to stop handing out awards. It does allow the mag to stop becoming an audio mag for a moment and allows it to come across in a more flashy appearance. Like i said they are entertaining editions (the award ones)

Yes, certainly. We hold our awards ceremony at a large trade show, invite a whos whos list of industry persons. Feed them well, give them drinks and finally entertainment. One year we hired Jackie The Joke Man for a 1hour set after some live music (F’er cost $15k). Lots of Buzz for us and the nominees.
It’s a win win for everyone.

[cryoparts]

FWIW--I have been doing this a long time.  I have had reviews published in TAS, Stereophile, PFO, Tone, 6moons, and many, many more magazines, or webzines. I have also received numerous awards, (including editor, writer and product of the year awards), recommendations, and "Recommended Component" listings from the aforementioned.

Never ONCE was any review, award, or recommendation based on quid pro quo.  In fact, I had to research who to contact to ask the magazines and webzines how I could advertise, if I was so inclined.  Sometimes I did advertise after the fact, most times I didn't, and it didn't make a hill of beans to any of the above if I did, or didn't advertise.  I have found virtually everyone I have dealt with at each publication friendly, honest, and to have high ethical standards.

So, a real perspective, from someone who is in the business and has been around a while.  Maybe I've been fortunate and have not dealt with the "tools" out there, if there are any, but as I have been doing this a long time, I know/have met/spoken with most of the well known personalities, who edit or write for the larger publications, so...

Peace,

Lee

[jimdgoulding]

Hi, Lee.  You're experience at TAS was good and hands on so you know something.  Heck, it was for me, too (Golden Ear Award).  I got a friendly message one day that REG likes off the wall things and that I could probably expect something.  But, can't you see any objective justification for my scepticism or that of others?  I used to wear TAS t-shirts in the 70's like a badge of honor.  I want all of THE best for them, but I want the best for a broader base of manufacturers, also.  Magico gets a three page spread for a mid level model of the same technology only a few months after another three page spread about another one of theirs, or was it five.  How about a new manufacturer altogether?  How about no status quo.  Doesn't it seem like there is one (at least in regard for speakers)?  I don't think or mean to imply that they are a closed shop, only that there is not enough space (i.e. reviews) given to newer and interesting developments.  Their must be a reason for that.  Whatever it is, it doesn't inspire optimism for me. 

I think I could make them a more modern and interesting publication.  Think they need to plow some new pastures, myself.  Bet you could, too.  And this is something I wish they could and would embrace.  They have gotten too cozy for me and quite possibly for them.  I'm sure they have criteria that says I'm wrong. 

Long live hard copy magazines.  But, in them, I need for there to be more interesting substance than I've seen of late.  TAS writers are superb.  Wonder what would happen if they were completely free to write about and/or review the audio subject of their choice.  I think they would find plenty of willing suppliers to draw from.  Heck, maybe everybody just wants to take a Magico home, or not.  The editor could make sure the cooks don't run too wild in the kitchen.

Any of this make any sense to you, Lee?  Am I alone here?  Steven Stone?  Anybody?

[cryoparts]

Hey, I'm not here to defend anyone's magazine, the people who publish and write for their respective magazines are more than capable of doing that themselves.  I just simply wanted to offer a viewpoint from someone who has been around a long time (me) and has has a lot of dealings with the press over the years.

As far as starting a magazine, or becoming a reviewer, no way.  Been there, done that, won't do it again.  I have a great deal of respect for those who are making a go of it.  Tough business, reviewing.  Which products do you review that will do the most good for the reader and the industry?  Those from a stable and established manufacturer, or those from an upstart company who may, or may not (most likely not) be around in a year, or two if they are really well funded?  I've been attending CES for 20 years, I have watched more companies than I can count come and go within a year, or two.  Is it good for the customer and the industry to have a review of a product take up valuable space in the magazine, when the company may not even be in business when the review is published?  There is a long lead time from submitting a product for review, until that review "hits", a small,  not very well funded company can go under, have three revisions to the product, or totally change direction in that time.  Then what, rewrite the review?  Cut your losses and move on to the next product?

As I see it, he problem is that there are so many products that all do the same thing (more or less), how does an editor choose which which one to review?  As an example, I'll pick on USB DAC's, as I am very familiar with the niche.  How many manufacturers are making them right now?  I can think of at least 20 off the top of my head, and I bet I could think of another 20 if I sat down for five minutes.  How many more will be coming out in the next six months, 20 more?  The recent availability of new high speed USB solutions will allow a barrage of 24/192 USB DAC's to come out in the next six months (hell, even I have commissioned one), I pity the reviewer and editors who have to chose which ones to give their time to. 

So, what does the reviewer/editor do?  Probably choose a well known brand with a good reputation, who is known to be stable.  Perhaps a company that they have had positive dealings with in the past, so they know that they have a pretty good chance of receiving a current, working, non prototype product, that has been vetted, proven, and tested.

As far as the two reviewer dudes involved in this thread, I have had multiple dealings with each of them. I find them both to be honest, forthcoming, and ethical.  However, they are quite different people, which I think is reflected in how they view products and the industry, and ultimately *how* and *what* they write about.  Both have been around the block, and I respect both of their opinions, even if they are different than my own.  I think they both give 100%, while following their muse.  In fact, I would say that most of the better known, higher profile reviewers do the same, and are free to do so.

So, how do the new companies, smaller companies, and limited distribution companies get on "the map", how do they get reviewed?  IMO, that's where these forums come in handy, and are of great value, and are a resource that we never had, up until 5-10 years ago.  A company can get some buzz going, interact with their potential and existing customers, answer questions, and just generally drum up interest in their product.  There are some great places on the 'net right now to build your brand, AudioCircle, AudiogoN, AudioEvo, Audio Asylum, Head-Fi, Computer Audiophile, and the list goes on and on, but you get the idea.  Once a company has reached a sort of critical mass, or a tipping point if you will, and has some recognition, has experienced some success, has some units in the field  that survived the alpha phase, and has a "following", a compelling case can be made at that point to an editor or reviewer as to why they should consider your product for review.

Well, in any event, this is becoming a tome, so I will stop now.

There are a ton of good products on the market right now, but a new company should not consider a review as part of their marketing plan, they should do some old fashioned beating of the streets to drum up business.  They have to work hard to make sales happen, form alliances, and  build a solid base/foundation upon which they can build a lasting and stable company.  Once that happens, the reviews and press will come.

Peace,

Lee

[cryoparts]

There are a ton of good products on the market right now, but a new company should not consider a review as part of their marketing plan, they should do some old fashioned beating of the streets to drum up business.  They have to work hard to make sales happen, form alliances, and  build a solid base/foundation upon which they can build a lasting and stable company.  Once that happens, the reviews and press will come.

As examples of one company/person who I think is doing the above, check out Neko Audio.  Making contacts, forming alliances, sending his DAC out on tour, not afraid to spend dough on Google Ads, so it seems that always has his product in front of a potential buyer, on one part of the web, or another.

Peace,

Lee

[jimdgoulding]

Whoa, feel like I been taken out behind the schoolhouse and given a whuppin!  Bunch of logic to your reply, Lee.  After having posted just before and probably as you were typing, I looked at their, TAS, most recent issue and I think it was a much better balanced one.  Wouldn't you know it, it was their '10 Golden Ear Awards issue.  Thanks.

[jimdgoulding]

I just had a look at John R's layout for his forthcoming ezine.  Have a look if you haven't already:  http://hifizine.com/

The layout is beautiful while at the same time pragmatic.  I think it has quality written all over it and have high hopes for its future.  Way to go, John.  Seriously very impressive.

One funny thing at this time, tho, the review of the LSAF appears to have been written in Latin.  That might be a smidgen TOO high brow, old sport.

[TONEPUB]

So, how do the new companies, smaller companies, and limited distribution companies get on "the map", how do they get reviewed?  IMO, that's where these forums come in handy, and are of great value, and are a resource that we never had, up until 5-10 years ago.  A company can get some buzz going, interact with their potential and existing customers, answer questions, and just generally drum up interest in their product.  There are some great places on the 'net right now to build your brand, AudioCircle, AudiogoN, AudioEvo, Audio Asylum, Head-Fi, Computer Audiophile, and the list goes on and on, but you get the idea.  Once a company has reached a sort of critical mass, or a tipping point if you will, and has some recognition, has experienced some success, has some units in the field  that survived the alpha phase, and has a "following", a compelling case can be made at that point to an editor or reviewer as to why they should consider your product for review.

Well, in any event, this is becoming a tome, so I will stop now.

There are a ton of good products on the market right now, but a new company should not consider a review as part of their marketing plan, they should do some old fashioned beating of the streets to drum up business.  They have to work hard to make sales happen, form alliances, and  build a solid base/foundation upon which they can build a lasting and stable company.  Once that happens, the reviews and press will come.

Peace,

Lee

This is excellent advice. 

[jimdgoulding]

I agree with both Lee and Jeff, if that isn't clear.  My complaints are more as a long time reader than as a manufacturer.

[kenreau]

I seriously doubt a consumer makes a decision between two products based on whether one has received an award or not.

Awards are more important to marketing and PR folks to prove they've actually been out there doing their jobs - getting exposure for their products.

Imho, this is not my experience at all.  I would venture, when given a choice of relatively equal products, a hifi consumer would most likely select a product that has received an award over another that has not.  Same goes with automobiles, appliances, movies, et al.

I think an analogy to music reviews might be applicable as well.  I rely heavily on music reviews (and some awards) in narrowing down my music selections.  There is a vast sea of mediocre drek available to the consumer and no one has the time or resources to sample even the tip of the iceberg of choices.  Plus, with the over abundance of marketing hype & BS, my sense is people are looking for more purchasing validation than just the attention grabbing ads & loud commercials.   I rely on reviews(favorable) and awards to narrow down my choices to what is presumed the best of the crop.  In addition, I think it also helps on resale value. 

At the risk of stating the obvious, if awards are handed out like after dinner mints at a restaurant, that certainly dilutes their value.

Kenreau