[cmscott6]

I was all set to buy a Music Hall MMF-5 for $489, when I found an ad for a Pro-Ject RPM4 for the same price.  I've heard the MMF-5, but not the RPM4.  Seems like they share the same tonearm?  In fact it seems that they share a lot in the construction.  

Anybody have any pointers, opinions, hints or anything else to go on?  I'll be running this through a Hagerman Cornet and AKSA pre-, amp and speakers.

Thank You!!

[Rocket]

Hi,

both of these products are made in the same czech factory.  pro-ject is the oem builder of the music hall turntables.

which one comes with a cartridge included?

are there any other us brands you could consider?  or second hand?

regards

rocket

[mcrespo71]

If you can stretch your budget up to $1000, there are better choices than either of those, especially if you hunt on the used market.  See my posts to the other gentlemen asking for advice on a $1000 TT.

Michael

[Tonto Yoder]

Rocket,
I believe Music Hall's come with Goldring carts, while the Pro-ject comes with a Sumiko cart (at least in the US since Sumiko is the importer).  It may be the Sumiko Oyster???

[cmscott6]

Sorry, I should have given more specs.  MMF 5 comes with Goldring Eroica cartridge ($489); RPM4 comes with Sumiko Pearl (sale $469).  $500 is really about my limit.  Also, because of my limited knowledge of turntables (and a recent bad experience with a used one), I'd rather buy a new one.

I actually bought the MMF5 on Friday from a local shop (trying to support local stores), but later that day the salesperson's nose-in-the-air attitude had pissed me off enough that I went back and cancelled just on principle.

I'm really leaning toward the MMF-5 because of its glowing reviews (once you get past the set-up stage).  The only real big differences I see are the glass platter on MMF-5 (mdf on RPM4) and hard-wired interconnect on MMF5 (RCA jacks on RPM4).  Otherwise they seem to be made of the same parts out of the same little factory in Czech Republic.

Just as an aside.  Both are powered by 12V "wall-wart" transformers.  Would it be beneficial to build an external power supply?  Yes, I'm trying to mod it before I buy it  

Thanks for your help folks!

[rosconey]

call bill at response-see the comercial sales posts area-he has a clearance sale, you might get a deal on a tt

[Tonto Yoder]

call bill at response-see the comercial sales posts area-he has a clearance sale, you might get a deal on a tt

He has that Audio Note table in one of his pics, but I have no idea which one it is nor how much it might be.

BTW, seems like Michael Fremer reviewed a batch of entry-level tables recently:  Rega P3, MMF,  Pro-Ject?? and the Nottingham Horizon. I tried to find it on the Stereophile site but no success.

[Psychicanimal]

I was all set to buy a Music Hall MMF-5 for $489, when I found an ad for a Pro-Ject RPM4 for the same price.  I've heard the MMF-5, but not the RPM4.  Seems like they share the same tonearm?  In fact it seems that they share a lot in the construction.  

Anybody have any pointers, opinions, hints or anything else to go on?  I'll be running this through a Hagerman Cornet and AKSA pre-, amp and speakers.

Thank You!!

Those "lesser belt drive" units, as I call them, will not give you proper speed/rotational stability.  Your music will sound bland, unfocused, without snap and with wobbly transient decays.  I strongly suggest you do not waste your money on those units.

There is a thread in Audiogon about making TT bases w/ Home Depot materials.  Worth checking out.

Also, if you're using a tube phono stage I would stick to MM cartridges.  The more quiet and paced and steady your platter's rotation is the more you will approach the positive attributes of CDs.  Stylus drag is a real drag, let me tell you.  I do not believe in the "analog" sound at all...

[mcrespo71]

I agree you should look beyond those products, as I've never found them that involving when I heard them.  I still think that budget analog starts at about a Rega Planar 3 2000, where you get PRAT and an excellent arm.  As I've said before, the MMF's and cheapo Projects, seem like they provide good value with all the bells and whistles, but I don't like how they sound- Rega's seem simplistic in comparison- without VTA, record weights, or built in bubble levels, yet are way more musical IMO.  That's just my opinion, but buy a used Rega instead or better yet get a used Nottingham Horizon or VPI Scout.

Michael

[Psychicanimal]

I still think that budget analog starts at about a Rega Planar 3 2000, where you get PRAT and an excellent arm.

The Rega's ( all of them ) are lesser belt drives.

Idler wheel or direct drive is the way to go in your budget.

[Carlman]

You might think I'm crazy but, I think this turntable would give as good of a value for dollars as anything up to a thousand:
http://www.hi-fiworld.co.uk/hfw/oldeworldehtml/sonybiotracer.html

Here's one on ebay:  http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3078914884&category=3283#ebayphotohosting

Use the money you save on a really nice cartridge.  

-C

[mcrespo71]

Those "lesser belt drive" units, as I call them, will not give you proper speed/rotational stability. Your music will sound bland, unfocused, without snap and with wobbly transient decays.

Uh, I don't get any of these qualities on my Rega P25.  My speed will ocassionally fluctuate by +/- 1% in my current apartment.  However, I've owned this table for 5 years and up until I moved into this new place, it played spot on using my strobe disc and the cartridge playing in the middle of the record to add appropriate stylus drag.  Sorry, I used to own a Denon direct drive and before that a Sony direct drive and I'm quite happy with the move to a Rega.

Michael

[/quote]Clash Story of the Clash LP

[Psychicanimal]

Stylus drag cannot be discerned by looking at the strobe light's pattern.  Speed changes are so minute and instantaneous that the ear must experience it.  It takes time to get used to, but the best thing is to compare same albums in CD and vinyl.  As speed/rotational stability increases, attacks are faster and shorter and decays more linear.  Eventually analog sound resembles digital's best attributes.

A speed fluctuation of +/- 1% is totally unacceptavle.  My TT has a measured wow & flutter of 0.01%

This is a very interesting thread:


http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?eanlg&1069168134&read&3&4&

[mcrespo71]

Enjoy your perfect measuring Direct Drive.  I had two of those as well- a Denon and Sony- sounded good, but not as good as my Rega.  Do you have one of those perfect measuring receivers that Julian Hirsh always raved about in the 70's as well?

[Psychicanimal]

Not all DDs are created equal.


I don't have a receiver, but I *do* have a classic Yamaha A-1 dual mono integrated amp w/ full service manual and schematics.  In my main system I use a pair of Marantz Ma-5 Esotec class A monoblocks and a Chanel Islands passive pre (RSA cabling througout).

Sorry, but the construction and performance of the Regas leave much to be desired.  Remeber, millions of people are happy with their Bose speakers.  When it comes to a platter's performance it can be measured and the measurements are indeed relevant.  There's absolutely no way a poor measuring platter will sound good.  Remember, half of the music is in the record.  The other half--the time domain axis--is the platter's responsibility.

[nathanm]

Cmscott6, you should definitely buy the Proselytizer BS1 turntable by Paradox Audio and then install the rhetoric generator modification as well.  I've heard it dozens of times myself and really - it never gets old.  However you have to be careful, as sometimes it will skip and you will hear the same tune over and over and over again.   It doesn't happen too often, luckily.  

The designers created the the BS1 table by using just their ears, no wait, they measured it, I mean they measured it with their ears, um, but like the wow and flutter is less than .05% but you can't know that cause only your ear can hear it and you ear doesn't hear percentages but yet they still know it's .05%, okay I tell a lie it actually falls within .05% and .1% or so, give or take with the stylus drag taken into consideration of course!  Oh, but I should remind you that the stylus doesn't touch the record on the BS1, well it does but only if you believe in the analog sound, which Paradox Audio certainly does not.   I dunno, just buy it and you'll see what I mean.

[mcrespo71]

There's absolutely no way a poor measuring platter will sound good.

Uh, I've heard plenty of what you call poor measuring platters that have sounded fantastic, but I guess I shouldn't trust my ears and should listen to your measurements, Psychicanimal.  I've helped friend's set up Nottingham's, Oracle's, VPI's Aries, and a Rega P2- all of which were not quite "spot on" when I measured them with the KAB strobe.  None were off by more than 1% and when we put the VPI SDS on the Aries and it ran 33 1/3 exactly, I couldn't hear a difference honestly, but I don't have perfect pitch to hear a 1% speed error in a table.

Platter speed is only one aspect to a turntable, albeit an important one.  What is also important is how well the table maintains the relationships between its various drive/suspension and pickup sub-components, and how rapidly it can recover from disturbances and suppress or dissipate resonance evenly across the frequency spectrum.  Thus, your "over-generalization" that my ocassionaly off speed Rega can't sound good doesn't cut it with me and btw, both of my inferior sounding Direct Drives did measure perfectly by my KAB strobe, so what's up with that?  Shouldn't they sound better than the "off" speed VPI's, Regas, Nottingham, and Oracle's.  Oh, I forgot, I read about measurements, but I don't listen to them.

Buy a used rega cmscott6.  If you don't like it, sell it and buy a Technics and mod the hell out of it like Psychic recommends.  

Nice post, Nathanm.  It made me laugh.  

Michael

[Psychicanimal]

Uh, I've heard plenty of what you call poor measuring platters that have sounded fantastic, but I guess I shouldn't trust my ears and should listen to your measurements, Psychicanimal.  I've helped friend's set up Nottingham's, Oracle's, VPI's Aries, and a Rega P2- all of which were not quite "spot on" when I measured them with the KAB strobe.  None were off by more than 1% and when we put the VPI SDS on the Aries and it ran 33 1/3 exactly, I couldn't hear a difference honestly, but I don't have perfect pitch to hear a 1% speed error in a table.

You just answered that--you don't hear right.

Platter speed is only one aspect to a turntable, albeit an important one. What is also important is how well the table maintains the relationships between its various drive/suspension and pickup sub-components, and how rapidly it can recover from disturbances and suppress or dissipate resonance evenly across the frequency spectrum.

True, but that variable (platter speed) is first and primordial--everything else is secondary to that.

Thus, your "over-generalization" that my ocassionaly off speed Rega can't sound good doesn't cut it with me and btw, both of my inferior sounding Direct Drives did measure perfectly by my KAB strobe, so what's up with that?

Stylus drag cannot be discerned by looking at the strobe light's pattern.  Speed changes are so minute and instantaneous that the ear must experience it.  It takes time to get used to, but the best thing is to compare same albums in CD and vinyl.

 

Crespo,

You obviously have no idea what I'm talking about.  Too bad, you seem to have invested enough time researching how to get that near field intimacy--with proper power delivery/noise control & proper attention to your analog you'd be totally stumped.  The other day I got that Mapleshade silver paste and I left the electrical connections in my modded 1200 for the very last (DC & AC power cords).  The increase in attack speed and decay linearity was significant.  Give this some thought, will you?  If you need further assistance give Kevin Barrett a call.  Be prepared, though--he'll tell you that beating a Linn is not hard to do... http://www.kabusa.com.

And yes, Nathan is funny.

[mcrespo71]

If you need further assistance give Kevin Barrett a call. Be prepared, though--he'll tell you that beating a Linn is not hard to do... www.kabusa.com.

Actually, I think I'll pass because NathanM has me sold on the Proselytizer BS1 turntable by Paradox Audio.  I'm gonna get me one of these

[Psychicanimal]

Actually, I think I'll pass because NathanM has me sold on the Proselytizer BS1 turntable by Paradox Audio.  I'm gonna get me one of these

Actually, your Rega might actually be a great match for the Parasound belt drive.  It's bland and lacks slam, authority and dynamics.  That's why Dan Wright is modding mine at this time. He promised to take care of that.