[jdbrian]

Hi folks

  I want to move to a computer based music server setup but have never owned a laptop or a mac. I have always used desktop PC's at work and home and a CD player for a source. This is for an audio only stereo setup. I have a very quiet listening room and this may sound like a silly question but do laptops have fans? Whenever I have been shopping for a laptop there is always a lot of ambient noise so I can't tell. 
  Some claim that the Mac mini is a great setup for a music server. Does it have a fan? Also the latest mini has been upgraded and comes standard with like a 2.2ghz processor and 2 gig ram. I assume this would be fine for music serving and that I would only need the extra ram if I was running windows on it? Also, will a MAC output high res audio from the USB or it's optical SPDIF, or is it limited to 16/48k like a pc laptop. This is all new to me but I do have friends and relatives who have experience with laptops for audio and also with unix and mac knowledge so once I decide on mini or laptop then I should be able to get any help I need.
  One last question. Are the music files interchangeable between mac and pc's. I would be using lossless encoding or wave files or maybe high res files.

Thanks
Brian

[jdbrian]

Nobody out there can answer these basic questions? Perhaps I should try over on the Apple forum.

Brian

[eclein]

I can only speak for my setup, don't know that much about MACs. I use a VAIO laptop as a server in the same room as my music setup and never hear the fan at all. I use a squeezebox duet receiver via wired ethernet connection and stream wav files from my VAIO to my AV receiver....works quite well actually. I rarely use CD's anymore except to import the music onto my laptop then they are filed away.
 I believe a file format is only restricted by the software you use, a wav file is a wav on a Mac or a PC I'm told. There are alot of options out there and if I were to start again from scratch I'd go with a MAC just because a ton of music production houses use MAC based applications. I have also read many reviews stating that MAC is the way to go. Good luck with whatever you decide!!

[skunark]

Hi folks

  I want to move to a computer based music server setup but have never owned a laptop or a mac. I have always used desktop PC's at work and home and a CD player for a source. This is for an audio only stereo setup. I have a very quiet listening room and this may sound like a silly question but do laptops have fans? Whenever I have been shopping for a laptop there is always a lot of ambient noise so I can't tell. 
  Some claim that the Mac mini is a great setup for a music server. Does it have a fan? Also the latest mini has been upgraded and comes standard with like a 2.2ghz processor and 2 gig ram. I assume this would be fine for music serving and that I would only need the extra ram if I was running windows on it? Also, will a MAC output high res audio from the USB or it's optical SPDIF, or is it limited to 16/48k like a pc laptop. This is all new to me but I do have friends and relatives who have experience with laptops for audio and also with unix and mac knowledge so once I decide on mini or laptop then I should be able to get any help I need.
  One last question. Are the music files interchangeable between mac and pc's. I would be using lossless encoding or wave files or maybe high res files.

Thanks
Brian

Yes, almost all if not all laptops have fans.  For the macbook pro's there are two fans underneath the keyboards that move air through the chassis out the back side around the hinges.   Most of the time they are silent but if you do intensive CPU tasks you will hear the fan, but I would probably argue that the dvd-rom drive is louder than those fans.     The Mac Mini has one fan that is really silent as I've only notice the hard drive making noises now and again. 

All macs have an optical input and output and for the mac mini, iMacs and laptops, this is shared with the headphone and mic jacks and will require a mini-toslink adapter and most older macs have supported 24/96.    You can use the USB DACs, but that limitation is normally set by the DAC itself and only the ones that provide drivers seem to go higher than 24/96.

I would assume WAV is the most universal lossless format and AIFF and Apple Lossless (ALAC) are probably just as universal.  FLAC seems to cause a lot of folks hardship on a Mac be cause they only seem to want to run iTunes.   If you were going to use an Airport Express, AppleTV or an iPod then FLAC would just need to be converted to WAV or ALAC, since they all can be "bit-for-bit" equivalent to the CD, a reliable conversion can occur.     I run both Windows and Macs at my house and all the computers seem to get along nicely with iTunes using Apple Lossless, but I'm also mindful of what codec are supported when I purchase something.

[lcrim]

The fan and the hard drive both are sources of noise.  I've been told on this site that netbooks equipped with SSD are silent but I was also told they only cost $300 and since I can't find such an animal, the no noise claims are also in doubt.
I would think that flac is the most widely used lossless format as it allows meta data tagging, an essential if you move stored music around.

[srb]

The fan and the hard drive both are sources of noise.  I've been told on this site that netbooks equipped with SSD are silent but I was also told they only cost $300 and since I can't find such an animal, the no noise claims are also in doubt.

A 64GB SSD drive would not be big enough for an OS and a good size lossless library.  The next size is 128GB, and those sell for a low of $225 up to about $400 for a bare drive.
 
In a few years they may become affordable enough that you might be able to buy a 256GB SSD drive for a couple hundred dollars.
 
Steve

[werd]

Hello

Laptops come with a big advantage. They can be placed quite far away from the system using a long usb. They also sound very nice on battery, unplugged off the grid. You can get really long battery  life with the laptop lid closed playing off your library. Its primo imo.

[K Shep]

I prefer a Mac Mini + external hard drive.  Yes, Mini's have a fan, a very quiet fan.  I have never heard the fan in my computer...however the external hard drive's fan is audible.  I play AIFF (files) in iTunes through a USB cable to an Ayre USB DAC.  I'm quite happy with the result.

[skunark]

I prefer a Mac Mini + external hard drive.  Yes, Mini's have a fan, a very quiet fan.  I have never heard the fan in my computer...however the external hard drive's fan is audible.  I play AIFF (files) in iTunes through a USB cable to an Ayre USB DAC.  I'm quite happy with the result.

I stopped using my mac mini Lacie look-a-like HDD within a week after i bought it as the noise was just too much for me to bare.  It does make a nice stand though...

To avoid the external drive fan noise, go after the portable versions as they will run off of the bus powered USB port like a Western Digital or Seagate.  If you have to have FW800 you can use G-Tech(now hitachi) HDDs  but are costly for a slight speed increase.  Even some of the WD and Seagate desktop external drives are also fanless but you will have a power wart..   

[K Shep]

I stopped using my mac mini Lacie look-a-like HDD within a week after i bought it as the noise was just too much for me to bare.  It does make a nice stand though...

To avoid the external drive fan noise, go after the portable versions as they will run off of the bus powered USB port like a Western Digital or Seagate.  If you have to have FW800 you can use G-Tech(now hitachi) HDDs  but are costly for a slight speed increase.  Even some of the WD and Seagate desktop external drives are also fanless but you will have a power wart..   

I recommend the iOmega hard drive (shown above) makes a great stand and stores all my files and is just quiet enough never to have bothered me. 

[chadh]

The fan and the hard drive both are sources of noise.  I've been told on this site that netbooks equipped with SSD are silent but I was also told they only cost $300 and since I can't find such an animal, the no noise claims are also in doubt.
I would think that flac is the most widely used lossless format as it allows meta data tagging, an essential if you move stored music around.

My ASUS eee netbook has a pair of solid state drives.  It cost $279, and is indeed silent.  Granted, I purchased it about a year ago, and more recently the only eee netbooks I've seen have had normal (noisy) harddrives.

If you wanted to pursue this route, I imagine you could take any old netbook and replace the harddrive with a solid state one and acheive the same results.  It would be more expensive though.

This approach makes it infeasible to keep your music library on the internal drive.  My C-drive is barely big enough for my operating system.  But there are lots of options available.  For instance, one can store tunes on a networked drive (this is the option I use).  Or one can use an external hard drive (e.g. I have a 640Gb WD drive that is powered via USB and is totally silent, purchased for around $80).

Chad

[lcrim]

Chad:
May I ask where or how you found these bargains?  Steve/SRB places the cost of a 128Mb SSD @ $225 to $400 and yet you have a Asus netbook that only cost $279 including 2 SSD. 
Even allowing for needing a remote storage drive, these prices just don't seem realistic to me.  USB cables that cost more than $1000 are also unrealistic in the other direction, of course.

[jdbrian]

Hi everyone

  Thanks a lot for all the input. I am new to this so this discussion is very useful to me. I have never been a Mac guy but lately I am getting pretty fed up with all the overhead that goes with using a PC based computer. The MAC just seems like an easier road but I would like to have file compatibility with friends who are using PC's.
  Because of all the PC history at work and at home I imagine there would be times that I would want to run windows on a mac mini.
  When running windows on a mini do I need 4gb ram? I am thinking of the base mini with 4gb ram. I would be using an external HD for music storage. Would I need a larger internal drive on the mini to run windows?

Thanks again fort he input.
Brian

[firedog]

Pretty much every laptop or mac not specifically called fanless or silent will have a fan. It may or may not make enough noise to be significant for you.

I'm sitting at the moment next to (1 foot from) a full fledged desktop PC in my listening room (not the one mentioned in my signature) that's been configured to be quiet - low db fans, quiet HD's (not SSD). I don't notice it at all unless there is NO other noise in the room. It doesn't take away from the enjoyment of listening to music.

YMMV, depending on the unit - some are very noisy.

A MAC mini is a very good choice for a music server, in general. There are a few issues specific to MACs as music servers, especially concerning configuring them for bit perfect output and switching between types of output when using iTunes. All of these "issues" can be overcome with the proper setup. You should read up on the subject here or at other forums.

PC's have their own issues that have to be dealt with if you want "audiophile" quality or bit perfect output. Both PC and MAC can give excellent sound if setup properly.

More RAM "never" hurts.

Neither MACs nor PC's/laptops are limited to 16/48 output. USB can give you good quality 24/192 playback with today's hardware - even on a netbook. Again, something you need to bone up on before spending money.


The most common lossless and hi-res format is FLAC, which is a Windows format. You can run it on a MAC with a few software tweaks.
Otherwise, you could stick with uncompressed WAV, or load a MAC with Apple Lossless. Compatibility would depend on what software your friends devices run.  People who aren't into high quality sound from their computer often don't have Windows machines setup with codecs for FLAC. If you just want to share a few files with friends, file format conversion is a trivial matter once you install the software for it.

One caveat: people who know about computers but aren't into good sounding audio generally aren't up to speed on all the settings and tweaks you need to know to get the best sound out of your PC/Mac. Better that you should educate yourself on the music/audio side, and depend on them for their knowledge of the computer side.

[roscoeiii]

And what about older G4 vs Intel Macs? Any performance differences between the two with regard to audio? Is there much audio-related software that requires an Intel chip and or Snow Leopard (which a G4 cannot run)?

[chadh]

Chad:
May I ask where or how you found these bargains?  Steve/SRB places the cost of a 128Mb SSD @ $225 to $400 and yet you have a Asus netbook that only cost $279 including 2 SSD. 
Even allowing for needing a remote storage drive, these prices just don't seem realistic to me.  USB cables that cost more than $1000 are also unrealistic in the other direction, of course.

Like I said, they're hard to find now.  I did a quick search for the Asus Eee PC 901, and found a few links with prices around $350 or $380.  But it seems that model is discontinued now.  I suspect I got a deal at less than $300 when the writing was on the wall for that model.

http://www.amazon.com/8-9-Inch-Netbook-Processor-Storage-Battery/dp/B001BYD178

This link shows the sort of prices they ended up selling for:

http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/26/asus-eee-pc-901-with-20gb-ssd-and-6-cell-battery-now-just-268/

By the way, this PC gives you 12Gb of storage, using an 8Mb SSD and a 4Mb SSD.

If you're interested, this seems like a potentially appealing option:

http://www.amazon.com/fit-PC-Slim-XP/dp/B001KYAYRO

It uses a conventional drive, but is fanless, tiny, wireless ready, runs XP.

Chad

[skunark]

Hi everyone

  Thanks a lot for all the input. I am new to this so this discussion is very useful to me. I have never been a Mac guy but lately I am getting pretty fed up with all the overhead that goes with using a PC based computer. The MAC just seems like an easier road but I would like to have file compatibility with friends who are using PC's.
  Because of all the PC history at work and at home I imagine there would be times that I would want to run windows on a mac mini.
  When running windows on a mini do I need 4gb ram? I am thinking of the base mini with 4gb ram. I would be using an external HD for music storage. Would I need a larger internal drive on the mini to run windows?

Thanks again fort he input.
Brian

You have two main options when you run Windows on your Mac Mini.
    1) Apple's Bootcamp:  This comes with Mac OSX now and requires you to partition the drive so you will have a second partition for Windows.   If this is the solution you want then 2GB is fine for XP and even perhaps Windows 7.  (Look for OEM licenses of windows at your local DIY shop)  http://www.apple.com/support/bootcamp/
    2) Virtualization: Virtualbox.org, VMware or Parallells:  With this solution you will be virtualizing Windows on your Mac Mini.   Another words, you will be running Windows just like an application on Mac OSX I would recommend that you max out your ram for the Mac Mini, run just Windows XP and minimize the virtual footprint as much as possible.   If you also plan to use TimeMachine, you will want to exclude some files and have Windows backup to an external drive.

Other than a few games, I've always been able to find a Mac application that performs the same function as the Windows counterpart.  If you need the exact same software to deal with a client then either solution above will easily work.

To comment on Firedog's statement...FLAC, technically isn't a windows format, it's just an audio format that plays on just about every OS out there.   Both iTunes and Windows Media Player don't support FLAC out of the box and to get it to work you will have to install the codec, but you will still have difficulties syncing those files to the Zune or iPod without converting it first.  FLAC has huge support in the Open Source and Linux communities as it's royalty free.

[firedog]

Skundark is correct - FLAC isn't a Windows format. I was trying to say that Apple doesn't recognize it and doesn't include codecs or software for using it. Microsoft also doesn't, but there is tons of software available for use on Windows machines that enables FLAC playback. Choose the one(s) you like. On a MAC your choices are more limited regarding FLAC, as Apple owners don't seem to use it much.

I'm not really a MAC person, but if I remember correctly, you need Songbird or a program like VLC Media player to play FLAC on a MAC.  On a Windows machine you can find lots of software that plays FLAC on installation or that just needs a plugin in order to play it (e.g. Winamp).

BTW, as far as I know Apple Lossless can't encode to 24/96. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Another consideration when deciding what format to use.

[srb]

BTW, as far as I know Apple Lossless can't encode to 24/96. Someone correct me if I'm wrong. Another consideration when deciding what format to use.

Apple Lossless does support 24/96.  It should support 24/192, but I have not ripped or converted to that bit depth and sampling rate yet.
 
Steve

[jdbrian]

Thanks everyone

  This is all good info. and I am starting to get some feel for the different issues. I am going to take firedog's advice and try to learn about digital audio for mac's and PC's. This discussion is part of that process.
   
Thanks
Brian