B200 a bit shouty

versus rider · « **on:** 25 Mar 2010, 07:10 am »

Hi all new on here and my first post. I have been interested in building some ob's for some time and have some 8" full range drivers tucked away in the cupboard. However some acrylic baffles came up for sale with B200's and some Visaton 15" woofers. They looked the bees knees so I went along for a listen. The bass was excellent but the B200's were shouty, more so than my Lowthers, which I would say are improving as they get more hours on them. Now the point of ob is there are no colourations as found with closed boxes, but how can one avoid peaks at various frequencies.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #1 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 11:41 am »

Folks that use the b200 (myself included) have found a couple of ways to work with this.

Phase plugs.
Compensation circuits.
Amp synergy.

I use both 1 and 3, as I am looking to preserve the efficiency of the driver, but lots of folks happy with 2, when using more power.

versus rider · « **Reply #2 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 11:49 am »

thanks for the reply Mark, I agree that No.2, compensation is not for me either. I understand that phase plugs help with beaming problems, do they also help to flatten the frequency response? Would you elaborate on amp synergy please.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #3 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 11:56 am »

I have never measured the output of my system, but since putting the phase plugs in, I am very happy with the overall sound of the b200's.

For me, amp synergy came through experimentation - gainclone, 3 different JVC digital amp, 2 Panasonic digital receivers, DIY monoblocks (AC member markc's 300wpc design and build were the absolute best), and an old SE el84 amp. I settled on the EL84 amp, as the way it works with the drivers is really good - I recall from the science guys here that why it sounds good is that it lacks control on the bass (compared to other amp designs), and that blends perfectly with the rising response of the b200 - ends up working well in my room with my baffles - could just be dumb luck!

I really cannot diagnose what shouty in your system, to your ears sounds like - but when I initially played the b200 with different amps, it would range from really thin sounding, to light sounding, to unbalanced, and then eventually to really nice. More of a subjective guy, so I just shopped used amps until I found something I liked the sound of - coupled with biamped OB woofers, I get what I like.

Welcome to AC!

versus rider · « **Reply #4 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 07:48 pm »

the B200's in question are not mine, I listened to them with a view to buying them. I found vocals were in my face and some music was a bit shrill and not balanced like you said. Frequencies were not at all flat. It may have been the room they were in, a glass conservatory. The bass was wonderful. I am going to eventually build my own ob's and from the posts I have read here on this forum I may have to experiment a little as there doesn't seem to necessarily be a foolproof formula for success. Maybe that will be more fun anyway.

DanTheMan · « **Reply #5 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 08:47 pm »

Here lies the answer:

Looks like a tough one to fix esp in OB.

Dan

opnly bafld · « **Reply #6 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 10:15 pm »

Quote from: DanTheMan on 25 Mar 2010, 08:47 pm

Here lies the answer:

Looks like a tough one to fix esp in OB.

Dan

Quote from myself in another thread:
"B200 lovers all over the world are glad we don't listen to Freq. Resp. charts."

Lin

DanTheMan · « **Reply #7 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 11:08 pm »

Quote from: opnly bafld on 25 Mar 2010, 10:15 pm

Quote from myself in another thread:
"B200 lovers all over the world are glad we don't listen to Freq. Resp. charts."

Lin

You may want to start. Check out the links in my signature or just read "Sound Reproduction" by Dr. Floyd Toole. Perhaps I need to shout that as it's apparently preferred by some.

Just kidding.

Relax,

Dan

markC · « **Reply #8 on:** 25 Mar 2010, 11:56 pm »

Thanks for the compliment Mark!
It will, of course, be different for individuals and rooms. I found that I could no longer live with the rising response of the B200 but loved the midrange. The bottom end is very good as well.
So, since I have plenty of power on tap, I crossed the B200 @ 2.1k and added a tweeter and a baffle step compensation circuit. All told, it took my about a year to perfect, (to my ears), but haven't felt the urge to change a thing in the last year and a half.

DanTheMan · « **Reply #9 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 12:04 am »

Quote from: markC on 25 Mar 2010, 11:56 pm

Thanks for the compliment Mark!
It will, of course, be different for individuals and rooms. I found that I could no longer live with the rising response of the B200 but loved the midrange. The bottom end is very good as well.
So, since I have plenty of power on tap, I crossed the B200 @ 2.1k and added a tweeter and a baffle step compensation circuit. All told, it took my about a year to perfect, (to my ears), but haven't felt the urge to change a thing in the last year and a half.

What tweeter did you go with?

Dan

markC · « **Reply #10 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 01:09 am »

Visaton G25FFL. Takes a little work but goes low and high! If I were to do it over again, I'd probably start out with a Morel.

scorpion · « **Reply #11 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 01:35 am »

Just have a look at the end of this thread to get the essence of the BSC contour circuit:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=31582.180 .

/Erling

Mr Content · « **Reply #12 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 01:47 am »

I can tell you right now that if you properly integrate the B200 into the right baffle, they are by NO means shouty. The plots do not take into account how the driver works in a proper baffle. Hundreds of people have heard mine, and shouty is Never expressed, rather smooth, toneally correct, is what people say. Dont dismiss them to soon.

Mr C

DanTheMan · « **Reply #13 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 03:57 am »

Mr. C,

Have you taken any polar graphs? In room Bass graphs?

Thanks,

Dan

studiotech · « **Reply #14 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 05:07 am »

Anyone else curious as to the average age of people enjoying the B200's? Anything else I've ever measured that looks like that graph is fatiguing to say the least. Any trained listener as referenced in Sean Olives blog or studio engineer would hear that response as problematic in a minute. The only explanation I can figure is that for older jazz and classical recordings with a soft top end, this type of response adds some "air" and detail that may not be there in the original recording.

Greg Begland - technician - www.phatplanetstudios.com

DanTheMan · « **Reply #15 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 06:06 am »

Actually, for a FRer, it's not too bad at all.

versus rider · « **Reply #16 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 07:06 am »

Quote from: markC on 25 Mar 2010, 11:56 pm

Thanks for the compliment Mark!
It will, of course, be different for individuals and rooms. I found that I could no longer live with the rising response of the B200 but loved the midrange. The bottom end is very good as well.
So, since I have plenty of power on tap, I crossed the B200 @ 2.1k and added a tweeter and a baffle step compensation circuit. All told, it took my about a year to perfect, (to my ears), but haven't felt the urge to change a thing in the last year and a half.

looking at the response graph, you seem to have found the answer, add a tweeter. I must emphasise, I only asked about the B200 because I was looking to buy some ready built OB's with those drivers, I'm not looking to start a war with the B200 lovers. Had I posted on here earlier I would have bought those baffles and carried out some mods, I believe they are now provisionally sold.

mcgsxr · « **Reply #17 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 11:35 am »

versus I think you raised a great question, and I am glad that both sides of the idea have come together to discuss. I see everyone playing nicely, but most importantly speaking their mind.

The graph does not lie, and I have heard my own b200's display sound that I would agree mimics that FR chart. That said, I have also swapped amps and had that sound dramatically change.

There is no perfect solution, and we all hear differently - when it comes to OB, I say wade on in, the water's fine - if you like it further up or down the river than I do, good on you for finding that perfect solution for what you like.

Lots of OB options on there for having fun with it - Hawthorne, Wild Burro, Visaton, Lowther, CSS, Fostex, Eminence etc.

I have also played around with car audio speakers (6x9's), just to get a handle on the OB effect.

Mr Content · « **Reply #18 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 11:47 am »

Dan Have you or do you own a pair of B200's. I think you need to talk from a viewpoint of an experienced user. If you are , thats OK you didn't like them, and thats OK as well. Thats why there is so many drivers to choose from, pick one that you like and use it. I Dont find it shouty, but then again I put a good 18mnths and dozens of baffles into development, so I am talking from an experienced users standpoint. Enjoy

Mr C

DanTheMan · « **Reply #19 on:** 26 Mar 2010, 06:01 pm »

Mr. C, with all do respect, I hope to not have to experience those drivers. Don't get me wrong, they are workable to a degree, but too many downsides for me. You CAN see that from the frequency response--well technically the polar response. A one axis response graph is fairly useless. Again, for a FRer, those are not bad at all.

You have to tame them one way or the other or the other and none are optimal for sound reproduction. Yes, there are definitely worse available, but better as well if you go multi way. If you have found a way to make these things sound good, to prove it all you have to do is post a polar graph. Don't believe me? Just read the links in my signature. Still don't believe, buy Dr. Toole's book. Still don't believe me............. Not much I can do except invite you over for a listen.

I know the science runs contrary to popular belief. That doesn't make it wrong. See the Dark Ages for proof. The polar response graphs are what you hear.

I too built an OB FRer in which I put in plenty of work. Modeled the baffle contribution with the Edge (judging by your shape I'm guessing you did as well) and read all the popular sites. In many respects it sounds great. I really learned a lot b/c of it and I know what I would do differently if I ever build such a device again. I still like it, but I'm going to sacrifice the drivers for better things. Since building my 2-way with a WG, there's just no turning back. Believe you me, it's no insult to OB. I still dream of building another OB, just with a bit more science on my side.

Don't know that I'll ever get around to it just b/c I don't miss any of my previous OBs one bit. There is potential there, just too many drawbacks for my wallet and current living room.

Dan