In your opinion which is more important: the room or the speakers?

Nuance · « **on:** 11 Mar 2010, 07:25 pm »

I was pondering which forum to start this in, so I hope the General Audio section is okay...

If I only had a choice between getting the speakers or the room "right," it would be an extremely tough decision for me. I certainly have my opinions based on my experience, but upon researching the topic I've never found a definitive answer as to which is "more important" in the reproduction of audio (IE, the quest for good sound quality). Obviously the combination of both is ideal, but I'd love to get the opinions of you all, and an explanation as to which you'd chose if you were limited to one.

There will be various opinions and reasons why, so please keep this civil. I simply thought it would be a fun topic to debate/discuss, and I hope that speaker designers and acousticians will get involved as well, as these forums contain experts from both industries.

So, if you only had to chose one, would you focus on the room or the speakers?

<Edited for poor grammar>

DSD_Mastering · « **Reply #1 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 07:29 pm »

Room... think about it. Even the best speakers won't work in a bathroom or other poor acoustically treated room, but even a modest pair of speakers will sound decent in a purpose-built listening room!

Regards,

ted_b · « **Reply #2 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 07:38 pm »

Room, no question! The room is the largest piece of equipment in your sound system. It is also the hardest piece of equipment to replace, so one needs to understand it's limitations, treat where possible, then find equipment (especailly speakers) that take advantage of the room's strengths and minimize it's weaknesses.

jtwrace · « **Reply #3 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 07:41 pm »

Room without a doubt. I'd take a mid fi system in a properly treated room rather then Hifi system in a non treated room any day.

The room is sooooo important. Until one tries it, you will not realize what you're missing.

drphoto · « **Reply #4 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 07:56 pm »

Maybe a matter of matching the speaker to the room as well, especially in terms of size and bass output. I think speaker designers are beginning to address how speakers interact with the room. Whether you agree w/ them or not, it's an interesting development.

Sort of echoing (no pun intended) Ted's excellent remarks.

As a side note, I've noticed how many small live music venues pay no attention to acoustics. When I was running sound for bands, I wish I had a truck full of acoustic panels I could hang.

pjchappy · « **Reply #5 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 07:57 pm »

Treatments and the room makes a HUGE difference.

I don't understand "reviewers" that don't have any room treatments (or even room correction, for what it's worth)

Paul

jtwrace · « **Reply #6 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 08:01 pm »

Quote from: pjchappy on 11 Mar 2010, 07:57 pm

Treatments and the room makes a HUGE difference.

I don't understand "reviewers" that don't have any room treatments (or even room correction, for what it's worth)

Paul

I use GIK treatments and DRC and it's awesome!

woodsyi · « **Reply #7 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 08:15 pm »

I will take a different tack here.

Speakers are more important because the best room in the world got no music without speakers. OTOH, you still got music in a lousy room if you got speakers. Having said that, room is a limiting factor on speakers' performance and should be considered in lock step with speakers.

jtwrace · « **Reply #8 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 08:17 pm »

Quote from: woodsyi on 11 Mar 2010, 08:15 pm

I will take a different tack here.

Speakers are more important because the best room in the world got no music without speakers. OTOH, you still got music in a lousy room if you got speakers. Having said that, room is a limiting factor on speakers' performance and should be considered in lock step with speakers.

ted_b · « **Reply #9 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 08:22 pm »

Woodsyi, I took this question as 'where would you spend your monies first", the room or the speakers...not "which can make music without the other". Logically we need them all, including amps, etc (whether buried in the speaker cabinet as in an active speaker system, buried in a receiver or integrated, or as a stand alone amp). I guess the signal path doesn't really need a room cuz sound exists outside too, but reasonable discussion about our systems obviates this. But your point does bring up that this is all fairly circular...a system is a system. Me, I'd spend some bucks on room treatments before speaker budgets are set.

BobM · « **Reply #10 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 08:25 pm »

The room and the speakers have to be able to work together homogeniously. So they need to be looked at together. Small speakers in a large room won't work well, and visa versa.

That being said, most of us have no choice in rooms, but we do have choices in speakers. The most we can do to our rooms is to use some kind of treatment, if the SO will let us oblige our nervosa.

However, if you think you're going to take your average sounding system and move it to another room to improve it you may be mistaken (or to move your excellent sounding system and think it will still sound excellent). You will no doubt be re-tuning and adjusting everything all over again to get it better or back to that excellent state again.

The room is the guide that we all must follow. Get it right and all else becomes easier.

turkey · « **Reply #11 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 08:37 pm »

I think it really depends upon the room and the speakers. In other words, some rooms will be workable and some won't. Given a "typical" room with a typical amount of furniture in it, you can select speakers that will make the best out of that room.

On the other hand, if your listening room is a natatorium covered in ceramic tile, no speakers are going to make the difference. You'll have to treat the room first in order to even think of putting a stereo system into it.

By the same token, some speakers are really hard to make work in a listening room. Others are much more flexible and will produce good results in a wide variety of rooms.

To sum up, if you said you were going to get these speakers and use them in this room, I might be able to look at them and give an opinion on which is more important. Otherwise I'd just have to flip a coin or something.

low.pfile · « **Reply #12 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 08:41 pm »

Nuance wrote (exerpt)

Quote

If I only had a choice between getting the speakers or the room "right," it would be an extremely tough decision for me......So, if you only had to chose one, would you focus on the room or the speakers?

What is the context? A dedicated audio room or a shared living space with an audio system?

While quite a few ACers, who are obviously serious hobbyests, may have the space and budget for dedicated rooms, not all individuals interested in audio have those. So your answers will be a bit skewed.

That said, I am on the other side of the majority who have posted. Partly because my audio system is in a shared use room (living room, occasional dining room) and partly based on personal taste of room aesthetics. I feel Once you put up panels the overall character of the room changes. While I don't have a luxurious home I stilllike my modest space to have a certain aesthetic--one that looks like a living space not a sound studio. Yes, I am aware there are wonderfully constructed acoustic treatments and custom panels available they still don't change what it is.

So speakers is my choice for a shared use space. and I don't even have a WAF.

cheers
ed

jhm731 · « **Reply #13 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 08:59 pm »

If I had to chose one, I would focus on speakers like the Geddes or Gradient Helesinkis that
minimize diffraction from the cabinet to nearby room surfaces.

woodsyi · « **Reply #14 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 08:59 pm »

My position is that a transducer's performance is not enhanced (beyond it's capability) by room acoustics. It can be severely limited by the room but not enhanced. So the speakers are the most important factor in that you can't do better than what the speakers were designed to do no matter how good the room is.

Most respectable speakers though are probably not functioning at full capacity in most listening rooms. So, in a practical sense, room treatment will give you the more improvement over speaker upgrade if you are at the point where your room is the limiting factor and not the speakers.

Nuance · « **Reply #15 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 10:03 pm »

Quote from: low.pfile on 11 Mar 2010, 08:41 pm

What is the context? A dedicated audio room or a shared living space with an audio system?

Well, since most of us don't have dedicated rooms, lets say a living space with an audio system. Either way, does it effect your answer?

jb · « **Reply #16 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 10:05 pm »

It depends on your perspective: Music or Audio. As a guitarist, I’d rather play a good guitar in a bathroom then a play crappy guitar in an acoustically perfect room. Most people can quickly adapt to different acoustics spaces and, almost unconsciously, ignore the obvious shortcomings. On the other hand, loudspeakers with glare and distortion will give you a headache in a good room as quickly as in a bad room.

ctviggen · « **Reply #17 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 10:06 pm »

Speakers -- if your speakers are crap, they're crap. No amount of room treatment will change that.

Duke · « **Reply #18 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 10:08 pm »

I'm also going to swim upstream here and say it's the speakers.

Let's suppose the question was about pianos instead. Which is more important: the room or the piano?

Well, what sort of room would it take to make a good piano actually sound bad? Pianos have been known to still sound like pianos in overdamped living rooms, in the backs of pickup trucks, and in high school gynmasiums. Sure they sound better in a good recital hall, but it would take a pretty extreme acoustic environment to make a good piano actually sound bad.

In my opinion, a speaker should behave essentially like our hypothetical piano; that is, it should sound good in all but the most extreme acoustic environments. Not that there isn't improvement to be had with an optimum environment, but neither the speaker nor the piano should be blaming the room for its shortcomings.

edit - jb posted much the same thing about guitars while I was typing.

ted_b · « **Reply #19 on:** 11 Mar 2010, 10:10 pm »

Quote from: ctviggen on 11 Mar 2010, 10:06 pm

Speakers -- if your speakers are crap, they're crap. No amount of room treatment will change that.

Why buy crap speakers? His theoretical setup is starting from scratch; he wouldn't buy crap speakers. You could say same: if his room is a cubed tile bathroom he's screwed too.

Maybe we're trying to catch a conundrum here. You can't just focus on one or the other? In realistic terms we have some choice over our room's impact ('m in the midst of a major acoustic redo of mine, with Jeff Hedback's help, my 20+ Realtraps, and some new exciting things like floating walls and an acoustic ceiling cloud

) but much more flexibility in our speaker choices. They act as contrast and brightness act in video; one affects the other proportionately. To simply adjust the contrast is usually never the solution. I guess I'd start with one (I voted "room") but it clearly affects the choice of the other.