Pannie 'versions' questions...

azryan · « **on:** 30 Jan 2004, 10:51 pm »

Wayne,

What/how many versions are you looking to do?

Two I'm guessing?

One as a 'bi-amp version' with 4 sets of binding posts that keep the center and rear center amps from ever being used right?

The other being an 'HT version' that will just replace the main binding posts and leave the other (horribly cheap) outputs stock?

Will both options happen at the same time?

Will the HT version have new wire going to those center/surround outputs too?

randog · « **Reply #1 on:** 31 Jan 2004, 01:33 am »

My .02:

I hope Wayne finds a way to turn all the speaker clips to binding posts on the HT version. If not, for selfish reasons, I hope he can fit 5 pairs at least. I think it would be advantageous even if you could only get banana plugs in them.

I believe the initial HT mod he did also included a lot of mods to the analog section (correct me if I'm wrong Wayne) and perhaps the mod price could come down a bit if they were done to the digital section only (more wishful thinking here). Finally, I know Wayne was looking into fitting bybees inside the case as well... or at least one at the rca digital in... not sure how that fared...

Now that I've stepped all over myself, Wayne, please pick me up off the floor and give it to me straight.

Randog

Wayne1 · « **Reply #2 on:** 31 Jan 2004, 06:42 pm »

Right now, subject to change at my whim, the two channel mod will have LOTS of power supply changes, power connector changed to IEC, all speaker output connectors removed and relpaced by 8, 5 way binding posts. The internal wiring will be changed, there will be some work done on the digital circuit, and I will replace some of the coupling caps in the two channel analog section.

The HT version will have the same power supply mods, IEC input and 5-way binding posts for the front L & R speakers. I am still not sure about the center and surround channel outputs. There is such a limited amount of space to work in and I don't want to just replace the spring terminals with cheap connectors. The same wiring changes will be done internally. All of the output wiring will be replaced.

I also plan to work on the s-video and component video sections. Work on the digital section will also be done.

I have not come up with ANY FIRM pricing. I am hoping to keep the mods at $700.00. I do doubt the price will be any less. There is a LOT of time and expensive parts involved. I am looking for a certain level of performance from these mods, I really don't want to offer anything that is compromised in any fashion.

There is no room for a Bybee in the digital section. There is room for Bybees in the output wiring, internally. The guestimated cost would be an extra $100.00 per Bybee installed.

Mathew_M · « **Reply #3 on:** 31 Jan 2004, 07:21 pm »

Wayne, you mentioned some changes in the analog section. Do you think that these will make a big enough improvement for those of us who have some vinyl and would like to keep the Panny for all duties?

Right now I have the XR25 which I understand that you are not modding. I'm looking to pick up a 45 (when they become available. everyone is out of stock currently). My biggest qualms with the 25 after probably a weeks of 7/24 burn-in is that the highs are too forward and sorta blare out. Not good. Also there is a lacking body or warmth. Much better than what my Le Amps were putting out but room for improvement. I know not to expect a tube sound however I'm wondering if the modded 45 improves drastically in these areas.

I'm also interested in your opinion on the quality of the dacs between a modded Art and the Panny. I know one of the reasons that the Panny sounds so good is the direct link between the source and the amp. However for those of us with speakers like the 626R who are also interested in tube amplification will the modded Art and a good pre give us a more involving sound? I realize that this is subjective.

Regardless I suppose we'll read the results in a week or two.

Thanks

Wayne1 · « **Reply #4 on:** 31 Jan 2004, 07:48 pm »

Matthew,

The capacitors in the power supply of SA-XR25 and the 45 are very similar to what I use in the modded ART DI/O. It does take about 400-500 hours OF CONSTANT USE for the modded ART to sound really good. It is the same way with the stock SA-XR series receivers. Do NOT make any critical judgements until you have at least 500 hours of constant use on them.

I do not believe the XR45 will ever equal an all tube system for vinyl. The mods I am planning for the analog section will improve it, but not to the extent that I personally feel it equals a tube preamp and power amp for vinyl playback.

Tyson did think, and I agree, that the sound of the modded Panny on CD was more to our liking than that of the Mensa Plus DI/O through the AVA gear on the VMPS RM-40s YMMV.

I cannot say that there is one unit that is all things to everybody. I am keeping my tubes for vinyl. The digital end of things will be used with the Panny. The 626Rs can be tuned to reduce the "glare" of the Panny. The treble control can also be turned down a bit on the Panny during the extended break-in.

The best thing I can say about the modded Panny is that it very much can reproduce what it is fed without ANY changes. If you like a warm sound, this receiver is not for you. It will sound just like the digital master sounds.

dwk · « **Reply #5 on:** 31 Jan 2004, 08:11 pm »

I would think that the best approach for anyone interested in the Panny units but needing a vinyl solution would be to look at a studio-grade external A/D converter, and run that into the Panny via spdif.

Depending on your definition of 'reasonable', there are some 24/96 units out there that would work for less than the prices of a typical tube pre. eg the Lucid 2496 @ about$800, or the Rosetta 96k at about $1200.

Of course, the DIO could be used as well, but it's not exactly in the same league as the above units. Still, if you bypass the tube stage and match the levels to your phono stage, the DIO might be good enough to show whether the 'sin' of digitizing your vinyl is offset by the performance of the Panny.

dwk · « **Reply #6 on:** 31 Jan 2004, 08:38 pm »

Hmmm, thinking about it, I have a Symetrix 620 A/D converter that I could bring to the demo session if there is any interest in trying this. The Symetrix was a pretty highly regarded mid-grade unit in the rec.audio.pro circles - I'd guesstimate that it would perform about on par with a modded-up DIO for A/D purposes. Not state of the art, but decent.

I also have an unmodded DIO, but everyone around here seems to have one so that's probably not very interesting.

Mathew_M · « **Reply #7 on:** 31 Jan 2004, 08:48 pm »

Actually I have used the DiO to upconvert the vinyl. At first I was getting weird results, like my speaker woofers would start throbbing at low levels. I think I almost blew them up. A day later I tried it again and it worked. Not sure what the phenomenon was. I was thinking some sort of low level feedback was entering the chain since the woofers would throb even when there was no music playing (just adjusting the volume level on the panny would effect this).

I'm not sure how you bypass the tube section on the Dio though. I think it automatically routes it though the tube gain with analog inputs. Maybe Wayne can go into the details. Are there any mods to the analog section of the dio that could improve on this?

Regarding the sound quality: Not bad. There was a noticeable digital sheen that veiled the sound though. Synthetic I would describe it as being. As a last ditch it can work but its missing that last bit of magic that can make vinyl so endearing to listen to.

azryan · « **Reply #8 on:** 1 Feb 2004, 06:52 pm »

Ok.... if you leave the crappy surround clips in the HT version but wire the back of them to high quality will this really be such a bad connetion?

My main problem with those clips is that there's not even as good as crappy 'spring clips'.
There's no spring there.

They just sort of fold loosly closed, can't hold 12ga. bare wire, and the wire can almost just fall out the connector is so loose/cheap.

Maybe you could find room to replace that block of output clips w/ a block of actual gold plated?, cheap, still small-ish in size, but ACTUAL spring clips w/ holes that will fit 12ga. (might have to tap the hole w/ a hand drill) and hold wire in much tighter?

Does someone make that? It's not binding posts but it would be better than stock and should be small enough still to fit.
Like ones made for cheap speakers w/ spring clips maybe?

"-I also plan to work on the s-video and component video sections. Work on the digital section will also be done.-"

I really hope the VIDEO stuff will be an 'option'.

I know a lot of people much prefer to run thier video directly to their display. I do. I'd rather not pay for video mods when I just want audio mods.

"-There is no room for a Bybee in the digital section. There is room for Bybees in the output wiring, internally. The guestimated cost would be an extra $100.00 per Bybee installed.-"

I hope the Bybee 'issue' gets a good explanation when you're all set.

'Cuz Tyson seemed to think it's a MAJOR part of the sound quality, and there seemed to be Bybee's in other parts of his system too which I'd imagine ALL had a benefit that those of use who get your mod and have no Bybees in our Pannie/system would not be getting.

IOW... we wouldn't be getting the 'WOW' system that is actually be talked about/reviewed.

How much do you think they improve things and where is the best benefit etc...

You mentioned too a power cable deal? What about a Bybee in that?

Maybe a captive Bolder power cable would b a better price/performance option? I'd be interested in that.

If a Bybee won't fit into the digital input, what about a dig. cable deal too w/ a Bybee?

Sorry... lots o' questions I know.
Thanks though!

azryan · « **Reply #9 on:** 1 Feb 2004, 06:58 pm »

dwk,

I personally don't have any vinyl but I wanted to say I really liked your idea of a 24/96 A/D converted to send them digitallt into the Pannie.

dwk · « **Reply #10 on:** 2 Feb 2004, 10:53 pm »

I looked inside my XR25 and did some searching, and it looks like the converter chips used in the Panny are actually pretty good converters - CS5361 - not quite state-of-the-art, but good. Good enough that they wouldn't be a limitation in any but the highest-end systems. The problem is that they require a differential signal floated at 2.5 V, and the circuitry needed to do that is probably pretty marginal.

As I posted in a thread in the 2-channel forum, looking at a transformer-input mod for analog inputs might be another interesting approach. Float the center-tap of the secondary at 2.5V and run it directly into the A/D inputs bypassing all the associated analog circuitry. I bet it could come pretty close to the high-end converters if you pay careful attention to shielding and layout, and use good trannies.

scottpretti · « **Reply #11 on:** 3 Feb 2004, 07:28 pm »

azryan, I agree with a couple of your items. I would like to see all binding post replaced in the HT mod, heck you could put them on the TOP or SIDE of the unit if needed!!!!! Also agree on the video mods (hope that it will be an option!) run my HTPC straight to my CRT projector. A captive Bolder power cable is an excellent idea. Just wanted to let Wayne know there are more people with these requests.

randog · « **Reply #12 on:** 3 Feb 2004, 07:49 pm »

I agree. My votes:

Binding Posts for all channels even if it means you can only get a banana in.

Optimized for 2-channel *and* HT in digital sonics.

Optimized for HT in video.

IEC power connector.

If the analog treatment is costly and has the least impact, I hope these mods will be optional (unless they also affect the digital path).

Also, a bybee adapter for the digital-in cable would be a great option as well.

Randog

Wayne1 · « **Reply #13 on:** 3 Feb 2004, 08:03 pm »

There is no way to install any binding posts on the top or sides and still be able to remove the cover for updates or service. The cable I use for internal wiring is not really all that flexible and it will put a bit of a strain on the circuit board and the thin metal of the case if not fastened down carefully.

There is no room to install an adequate strain relief for the NITRO power cable if it was hard wired in.

All I am planning for analog mods is to replace the caps in the circuit path of the two channel inputs. This will improve the sonics for those who wish to use the tuner or run an external analog in to the unit. I was not planning on going through all of the 6 channels of analog input. I may offer it as an option.

Video mods will be an option.

There will be a comparison of the modded unit with a Bybee inserted in series with the digital input. I will also bring along some of the Speaker level Bybee adaptors, so we can compare the sound with and without.

Tyson is going to be moving apartments this weekend. He and his wife have finally gotten a corner unit. This will be a larger space for his 40's

We will have to see if Jerry (Turk) is still willing to host our get together.

azryan · « **Reply #14 on:** 3 Feb 2004, 09:03 pm »

"-Tyson is going to be moving apartments this weekend. He and his wife have finally gotten a corner unit. This will be a larger space for his 40's-"

Am I the only one worried that there'll be talk like -"It's a new room so we didn't have the system set-up optimally when we did the test."?

RM-40's ain't known for being a breeze to dial into a new room.

Anyway...

Good stuff on the options and why you can't do a captive cable (dang, too bad) or putting binding posts on the TOP! hehe

Ok.... if you leave the crappy stock speaker clips in the HT mod version but rewire the back of them to sound much better... that seems good, but 'other' problem with those clips is that they're not even as good as cheap 'spring clips'.

They just sort of fold closed, there's NO spring, they can't hold 12ga. bare wire, and the wire can almost just fall out the clip is so weak/bad.

Maybe you could find room to replace that block w/ a block of actual spring clips that are still cheap, still small-ish, but actually w/ holes that will fit 12ga. and hold wire in MUCH tighter?

Parts Express #260-305 looks better to me. Looks like you'd need 2 per Rec. and would cost $2.30 per Rec.

Or maybe from somewhere else?

A decent/cost effective compromise between stock clips and a binding posts that don't fit IMO.

Hell... Could you put the main speaker outs where the component RCA jacks are to gain space? Looks like they'd fit there if it'd fit internally (if the wire will bend).

I've never run video through any rec. pre/pro I've ever owned.

Then the two blocks of the Parts Ex. spring clips I mentioned would fit where all the stock outputs are now.

no?

randog · « **Reply #15 on:** 3 Feb 2004, 09:24 pm »

Thanks Wayne, I like the meat of your reply. I agree that binding posts anywhere but the back would be hokey. I also like the idea of mods to the 2-channel analog... great stuff. Thank you for putting up with our comments and suggestions.

I was hoping to put my M.E. hat on when my unit came in and dig into it, but I just got an email from computers4SURE.com that they CANCELLED my order. The unit is backordered until April or May now!

Randog

maxwalrath · « **Reply #16 on:** 3 Feb 2004, 09:26 pm »

shit...how long ago did you order? I placed mine about 5 days ago.

randog · « **Reply #17 on:** 3 Feb 2004, 09:41 pm »

1/25... 9 days ago.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #18 on:** 3 Feb 2004, 10:28 pm »

I have ordered some smaller diameter binding posts. I am not sure how they or if they will work with spade lugs, but they should work fine with bananas.

None of the speaker posts are cheap. They do make a quite difference to the sound. The ones I am going to use are all direct gold plate over brass with a minmum amount of metal. There will be over $100.00 in just speaker posts in the HT mods.

The test will not be done in Tyson's new room for some time. We will try to use Jerry's place. He has the RM-40s with TRT caps and the FST. Tyson and Jason have spent quite a bit of time dialing in the 40's there.

scottpretti · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Feb 2004, 03:36 pm »

Okay, So my request for side or top mounted binding posts was corny and undoable

..... Thanks for doing some legwork on the binding posts Wayne

, now I can buy some speaker cable from you. I can't wait to send my unit in for some work!