High End Retail - Brick & Mortar

jaxwired · « **on:** 28 Feb 2010, 03:40 am »

I've had so many bad experiences in brick and mortar retail hifi stores that at this point I don't even want to go in them. I'd rather just buy off the internet or buy used from Agon. And while I could write a long bullet list of all the things I don't like about the few remaining retail stores, I won't bore you with them (unless you ask real nice

).

However, after some serious thought (and that don't come easy brother), I want to post what I think the primary problem is. Kind of the root of the problem, if you will. Seems to me that the manufacturers should group their dealers into two categories: Home Theater, and 2 Channel HiFi. They are very different businesses and I'm sure many of you have experienced the difference. It's pretty clear the minute you step into one or the other which one it is. If you are a 2 channel guy and you go to the find a dealer on the manufacturers web site, they should direct you to the correct type. This is a big problem for 2 channel buyers because they currently do not direct you to the correct type of dealer. And since 9 out of 10 B&M stores are home theater retailers, they are nearly worthless to the 2 channel stereo buyer. Disagree? Let me get out my bullet list of complaints.

Well how about instead of the full list, I will just make one point. HiFi stores generally have a very healthy markup on product. 40% is not uncommon. Now I don't begrudge them this markup one bit as they have things to pay for like: knowledgable staff, stock room product, demo room overhead, and 2 channel demo gear. Here's the rub though, home theater stores don't have any of that stuff.

hibuckhobby · « **Reply #1 on:** 28 Feb 2010, 08:52 pm »

I think (always scary when a posts starts that way) that it's pretty hard for a brick and mortar place to make it in today's market. I sold audio at one time in my life and I doubt it's gotten any better since then. People want (insist on) home demos of anything they buy and so you not only have to have one of everything in stock..you need a number of pieces that you are willing to let people try out, scratch up and then sell at a significantly reduced price. In the mean time, they will use your equipment to decide what they want and then either try to lowball you on price or won't even deal with you...they'll buy on the internet.

Even if you don't let things out on loan, you have to pay the rent and your staff as well as have a number of well set-up rooms with systems people can listen to. If you do, they will listen to what you are selling, pick your brain for weeks/months and then buy used or on the internet. It's human nature to want a "deal"...but how do you pay the people who were instrumental in helping you decide what you wanted? Loyalty is a hard to come by commodity.

Is that an excuse for poor service or encountering an attitude? No...it's not. It's just harder to keep that good attitude up after long hours and people who feel like they should always be the most important customer you have. Frankly, I'm kind of surprised brick and mortar has lasted this long. Must be that there are still some people who genuinely love the hobby and like helping people enjoy it.

Hibuck...

jaxwired · « **Reply #2 on:** 28 Feb 2010, 09:46 pm »

This topic tends to prompt some people to defend B&M retail and how hard they have it and how we should support them and all that. I totally understand that attitude if you have a great 2 channel store in your town. I'd feel the same way. But for most people that's only a dream and the manufacturers need to get a clue. I recently called a dealer in another city and they told me they could not sell to me due to dealer restrictions and I should buy from my dealer. Well that guy is an empty store front that will gladly use his computer to design me a mega home theater room, but has no time for my 2 channel needs and knows little about it.

I blame the manufacturers. If they are going to enforce strict dealer territories, then they have a responsiblity to make sure that those dealers are keeping up their end of the customer/retailer agreement. The customer has the responsiblity to not waste the dealers time and to not buy from the internet after using the dealers demo gear. And people are quick to point out how customers tend to do this to the detriment of the dealer, but the dealer has a responsibility also. His responsibility is to provide knowledgable sales staff, stock a good variety of gear and provide demo gear of all or at least most of the products he is authorized to sell. Many dealers are not providing this.

twitch54 · « **Reply #3 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 03:09 am »

Sorry to hear of your wows jax but it's obvious you live in the wrong area for good Audio / HT, for half from my 'shack' I've got.....

http://www.overtureav.com/

none of the issues you describe

Duke · « **Reply #4 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 06:57 am »

Jax, you might consider making the pilgrimage to an audio show.

pardales · « **Reply #5 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 07:22 am »

Unless you live in a major metropolitan areas I think it is rare to find quality 2- channel audio shops. Most stores that carry audio gear specialize in HT. That said I do live in a major metro area and am fortunate to have 3 quality B&M dealers in my area that do the 2 channel audiophile justice as well a 2-3 in-home dealers that work by appointment. They carry a great selection of brands and are knowledgeable.

But I don't patronize them because I know I won't buy from them. I don't want to pay retail and I enjoy doing the research and experimentation on my own. My experiences on AC have also introduced me to a wide array of smaller, quality manufacturers that tend to deal direct. I like this model better.

skunark · « **Reply #6 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 08:37 am »

I've always struggled with the b&m vs online as well. On one hand I can support my community by shopping locally at the cost of poor selection and price. Or I can shop online at the risk of losing the local stores and the ecosystem of the community. At this point in my life, I will research the products I want and if I can reasonably buy it locally and if it's a store that I think adds value to the community I will pull the trigger otherwise i will buy online and hope the delivery person doesn't put the box on the front porch. It drives me insane but I will buy a CD at the local music store for a couple bucks more than to go to a department store. I would be sad if there wasn't a few stereo shops within driving distance.

I do agree that HT and 2 channel works better seperately. I've noticed at least in my area I've enjoyed the HiFi stores more when they got out of the car audio business. Also, almost as annoying is seeing the same gear at different stores because if the distributors. I can't tell you how sick of seeing classe, rotel and b&w at the same stores. Nothing against those brands (as I am client too

).

jaxwired · « **Reply #7 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 11:03 am »

Quote from: pardales on 4 Mar 2010, 07:22 am

My experiences on AC have also introduced me to a wide array of smaller, quality manufacturers that tend to deal direct. I like this model better.

I totally agree. That is a better model. B&M retail only works if you have a market size to support it. High end 2 channel audio definately does not have a big enough market to support it. The only reason the manufaturers and distributors haven't been forced to adopt a new business model is because of the home theater installation business. That business has allowed the 2 channel audio business to live in denial for a little longer. But even that business is drying up to some extent.

To me the best long term answer for 2 channel audio is direct sales or internet sales. The manufacturer should go completely internet or direct sales. Then, THEY MUST REDUCE THEIR PRICES to reflect the normal lower markup that internet sales dictates. Now, most importantly, they must adopt a 30 day money back guarantee for product. This allows for home demos. OR, barring the money back policy, then must have mail order demo gear. One or the other. Either 30 day money back on new stuff or have an official demo program.

This system can work great. I'm a tennis player and for the last 2 major tennis racquet purchases, I bought from tenniswarehouse.com. They keep a supply of banged up demo racquets for most models. You pick the one you want to try and they mail it to you with a return ship label. You have to pay $20 for the privilege (they mail you up to 4 racquets for the same price). When you are done demoing, you mail them back in the same box. I've done this, then I purchased the one I liked. It works great. This model is how high end audio should work. And it would be this way IF home theater stores didn't exist. It's the only way, long term, that the high end manufacturers can address their full market. The smart ones will eventually do this in my opinion...

macrojack · « **Reply #8 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 01:08 pm »

I gave up on B&M stores long ago too. The internet works fine and the tennis racquet model sounds somewhat promising. However, increasing shipping rates, high potential for shipping damage, and internet sales tax all loom as obstacles to success in that model.
The growing DIY interest and the shrinking audiophile market and the stagnant economy have to be affecting this picture as well.

jaxwired · « **Reply #9 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 01:34 pm »

Quote from: macrojack on 4 Mar 2010, 01:08 pm

However, increasing shipping rates, high potential for shipping damage, and internet sales tax all loom as obstacles to success in that model.

Regarding shipping, while it is a concern, increased focus on packaging can address this. Also, many dealers use Fed Ex and UPS right now for all their gear. The days of getting pallet deliveries from freight companies are pretty much long gone for high end retailers. They order the stuff from the distributor who ships via UPS every day all day. Damage is very rare, especially with electronics. Speakers are definately the most vulnerable to shipping. But I really think if the manufactures went to an all direct sales approach they could come up with UPS proof packing and boxes.

macrojack · « **Reply #10 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 02:22 pm »

You're setting the bar very high indeed when you say "UPS proof packaging". I know of an instance when UPS ran a fork lift blade through a wooden crate and destroyed the amplifier inside. Don't underestimate their ability to do damage.
I wouldn't ship a bowling ball with them if I had any other choice.

hibuckhobby · « **Reply #11 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 02:27 pm »

Once again...I have to respectfully disagree. Last pair of speakers I ordered...from Tyler Acoustics,
arrived via UPS with one of the speakers destroyed. Some bonehead put a tine from a forklift right through the box and one side of the speaker. What's more, they left them in front of my garage with the damage turned toward the house, so it looked OK when I got home. Fortunately, Tyler stood behind them, and replaced the speakers with a new pair. I've fought with UPS before and have never heard so many excuses in my life. Took 6 mo. for a $250 claim.

Regarding a 30 day in home trial...I wouldn't want to be a retailer following that model. Too many people out there who aren't really buyers...they just want to play with equipment they can't afford. I don't have any good retailers where I live. I do my research, go to Audio Shows and take my chances. Would I like a bigger safety net for ME? Sure...but I have a lot of things I'd like that aren't going to happen any time soon.
Hibuck...

jaxwired · « **Reply #12 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 02:38 pm »

Quote from: hibuckhobby on 4 Mar 2010, 02:27 pm

Regarding a 30 day in home trial...I wouldn't want to be a retailer following that model. Too many people out there who aren't really buyers...they just want to play with equipment they can't afford.

That problem is easily fixed. The company offering home demos would charge for the service. I'd gladly pay $50 to have a 3 day home demo before buying a 5k amp. Also, the companies would take a credit card number and put a hold on the cost of the product. I think this would curtail abuse...

Oh yeah, the $50 demo fee would be applied toward any future purchase.

gerald porzio · « **Reply #13 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 03:27 pm »

The home demo is an endangered species. Too many take advantage, & then buy on the I-net. How many models can one expect a dealer to sell as a demos?

turkey · « **Reply #14 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 06:40 pm »

There are still a few audio dealers in my area, although most of their business is home theater.

I've gone to them to listen to things fairly recently, but haven't heard anything I actually like at a dealer in years and years. However, if I did hear something I liked, I would attempt to purchase it from them. I don't think it's fair to use their resources and then purchase off the net.

I've had a lot of attitude from dealers over the years. They don't seem to understand the whole customer/seller relationship. It's as if they're doing you a favor by letting you in the door.

I know that all dealers aren't like this. I went to a show in Detroit and met a number of dealers. Along with the jerks were a number of very friendly, open people who seemed to really enjoy their jobs. I'm sure if I lived in that area I would be doing business with one of them.

BobM · « **Reply #15 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 06:53 pm »

Lets face it, a brick and morter store locally is a very nice place to visit and check out new equipment and engage in Audio discussions and such with knowledgeable people. But when you can save yourself $500 or more on the web it is hard to do business with brick and morter. Especially true in these times.

Any seller of goods will try and do 2 things, reduce the price they have to pay for something and increase th price that you have to pay to buy it from them. It's called profit. Web sellers have low overhead and can offer better discounts. Stores have higher overhead and can't. And with all of these audio forums there is a lot of knowledge that can be gleaned from just haning out and reading. And if there's a club in your area you even have the benefit of hearing other equipment for the cost of a sixpack or a bottle of wine.

So why visit a store and frequent a dealer? (I am playing devil's advocate here)

Mike Nomad · « **Reply #16 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 08:52 pm »

Great thread. However, there is one aspect to the whole "on-line vs. b&m" pricing situation that I don't see being addressed: Service.

Yes, the b&m prices are higher because of rent, wages, greed, etc. And I'm sure everyone here has plenty of stories about dealing with sales people who don't know the difference between a TK-421 Upgrade and a Flux Capacitor.

However, a b&m is a physical point of contact when a piece of gear breaks down. My success percentages on Broken Equipment Resolution is far higher dealing with b&m than on-line.

rahimlee54 · « **Reply #17 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 09:16 pm »

Last time I was in an audio store I mentioned that they now carried my projector they didnt have at the time I bought it. The guy that was demoing some speakers for me basically asked me if he should bother wasting his time since I bought my projector on the internet. I then left his store and don't plan on returning as I found better speakers for the same cash going ID. I had planned on buying from his store to begin with. I tried another local dealer that was pretty awesome though so it's like all things, you win some you lose some.

I have never had to return anything to an ID company so I can't comment on that.

Jared

gerald porzio · « **Reply #18 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 09:26 pm »

Many B&M dealers have no repair facilities. They'll probably ship the amp to the mfg. or auth. repair station, but so can the consumer.

pardales · « **Reply #19 on:** 4 Mar 2010, 10:33 pm »

Quote from: Duke on 4 Mar 2010, 06:57 am

Jax, you might consider making the pilgrimage to an audio show.

Agreed. Even though I have access to some good local dealers I don't visit them because I know I won't buy from them, and don't want to waste their time. I wait for the once-a-year audio show that is near-by, pay my admission, and soak it all up. Rest of the time its reading about stuff on AC, in magazines, and talking with friends.