[DSK]

What I was using was the Outlaw 950 pre/pro and eARTwo digital amp. I knew the Outlaw wasn't close  ...

Have you had the opportunity to compare the Panny to the eARTwo with a top notch pre? I'd be interested in your thoughts.

[azryan]

"-Have you had the opportunity to compare the Panny to the eARTwo with a top notch pre? I'd be interested in your thoughts.-"

No. Sadly. But then people could argue forever as to 'what' a top notch pre is. Tubed? Solid state? Passive, active. Tons of variables. All things I was kicking around as to what I should do myself.

I had been looking for months into getting a great 2-chan. preamp, and then one of three 'giant killer' small DACs that have all been raved/and argued about here in great length.
And then I'd still need to keep the Outlaw for HT, plus surround amps. Not ideal, but I wanted GREAT 2-chan. sound.

That's a ton of variables and you just can't test all this gear at the same time and find out what you really feel all works together the best in your opinion. It's just SO though.

I was honestly 'happy enough' with the Outlaw/eARTwo combo. I could tell the Outlaw was a little edgy on the top end and didn't quite have the Nth degree of detail or depth, but I've heard a lot of super high end systems that didn't put mine to shame so I was pretty much fine where I was.

It was really just knowing -'But a killer 2-chan. pre and sepp. DAC have GOT to kill this Outlaw!' that kept me from just sticking with what I had.

I also knew I didn't need the 250WPC that that eARTwo puts out having very high effi. speakers so I decided to sell the eARTwo instead and then totally start over looking into Gary Dodd's 120W tube amps, or some of the other new digital amps coming out, or the 100% all digital path Recs. of the Pannie and new Sony's.

Certainly VERY diff. paths. More variables!

BTW- I owned Audiosource's Tripath based digital AMP7 (200WPC) before the eAR and the eAR killed it instantly even w/ the Outlaw being used on both.
I thought the Outlaw would hold back the eAR and I'd just have to return it, but even my wife told me it was not even close and to keep it.

Also... the eARTwo broke a week after the guy I sold it to got it. I felt like crap for that happening, but I never had any probs. and it should be under warr. but maybe something's wrong with it's design? I've heard of several others doing this same thing now.

Anyway... I was impressed in a lot of ways with the Pannie and Sony for their dirt cheap price, but neither seemed to be a keeper at all for 2-chan and the Sony turned out to have a high noise level/low gain problem and something messed up on the very top end (maybe an effect of their DSD-like PLM 'S-Master PRO' amp modulation?) so I returned it.

The Pannie isn't harsh like that but nothing to backflip over in the 'realism' dept. but it had great detail/speed and bass depth/control and overall dynamics which were really shocking from this little critter.
I have the XR25 and the 45 is supose to be a bit better even.

It did enough really well that it gave me a lot of faith in what the future would hold for an all digital Rec.

I've been expecting mass market all digital Recs. for at least 3+ years now but in between time I became somewhat convinced that a 100% digital path wasn't ness. the 'be all end all' as many newer analog in dig. amps were getting rave reviews and being called better than TacT's -who were the first of the dig. amp 'wave' and actually a 100% digital path and now the tech. that Pannie is using here.

So looks like I've come full circle.

I felt that I'd keep the Pannie XR25 as a 'stop-gap' till the 'real' thing I wanted came out, but I really felt if implemented with top quality in mind (which the Pannie isn't) this technology should put out amazing sound.

Then reading about Wayne modding the XR45 (which is exactly that thought in action) and it bettering his modded Lex/Parasound HT, and Tyson finding it able to power his RM-40's and better than his outstanding 2-chan. system that included the MENSA DI/O which-

1) itself costs more than half of what this modded Pannie costs
2) was a Boulder Cable maxed out mod itself
3) was one of the 'giant killer' DACs I was thinking of buying if I got a killer 2-chan. preamp, and new amps in the first place!

...it was pretty clear that Wayne seems to have at the very least greatly eliminated the subtle flaws in the stock 45.

There's no way the 45 will be for everybody, and I still don't know if I'll LOOOOVE the 45 in modded form, but I'm very sure that it'll easily beat the Outlaw/eARTwo combo for both HT and FAAAR more critical 2-chan. use which in itself is enough to justify it's ~$1,000 total cost compared to an $800 pre/pro (which is typically itself called damn close or equal to several $2-3K pre/pros), and a several thousand dollar dig. amp that's been called world class by a lot of people (and better than far more costly amps), and whose core technology (ICEpower) has caused Jeff Rowland Group to make the switch from solid state to digital to rave reviews.

-Eric's comments here on how these type of comments happen quite often here are noted, but I think can be put in perspective when directly compared to other gear.

Plus it'll also be powering the rear speakers (which my XR25 was already doing anyway when I used the eARTwo and Outlaw).

The RM-40's I heard in town here were connected to VERY costly Sonic Front. tubed DAC and Pre amp, transport, and sepp. power supplies, fancy cables/wire, and I think 400W Aragon monoblocks.

My friend and I both prefered my GR Alphas w/ the Outlaw and eARTwo (and no fancy cables/wire at all).

I wasn't bowled over by the RM-30's in VMPS's room in Vegas either but I'd say I thought the 40's and 30's were VERY transparent though like my Alphas.
Outstanding speakers that 'sound' like what you send them FAR more than what they themselves 'sound' like, and it was more the signal they were sent that I think I didn't prefer.

There wasn't any attribute my friend and I (hearing the 40's) or my wife and I (hearing the 30's) felt was better, so however bad the Outlaw is.... I think the eARTwo let it do the very best it could, which is really quite good.

So I'm still considering this modded 45 an experiment, but I'm pretty sure the results will meet or exceed my expectations -which in real world terms will probably hold it's own against a lot/most world class gear IMO.
Feel free to form your own opinions.

In price/performance I think it'll be the current best total package there is, but really... almost impossible to compare to high end gear anyway. What DAC, what preamp, what amp, what cables used? What 'sound' are you looking to create? etc...

Will it beat anything and everything? Doubt it, but it doesn't have to to still sound incredible in it's own right, and 'what's the best' always ends up being a totally pointless debate anyway.

Does it sound great to you and do you pee your pants when listening to your fav. CD are far more meaningful questions. hehe

I had to ask myself... do I REALLY want to spend $4K+ to get a 'diff'. 2-chan. sound than this that I might like better, when I think I could totally live with the modded 45's sound (and lots of functions)?

Can't go wrong I figure.

So long story short... -D'Oh!

[DSK]

Azryan,
Thanks for the comprehensive reply, I understand your situation and decisions. Though not ready to jump in just yet, I have been watching the evolution of the digital amps with interest. The most common criticisms of them seem to be a lack of refinement in the high frequencies and a lack of emotional engagement, but I'm sure these areas will improve with the increasing development and tweaking going on. It seems likely that we will end up with better sonic performance for our dollar than ever before ....and I'll certainly drink to that !!    

Cheers,
Darren.

[azryan]

Hell Yeah!

See--- I can make short posts!! hehe

[virg1856]

Has anyone heard the Harmon Kardon DPR1001 digital receiver?  If so what were your impressions and how would you compare it to the XR45?

[morasp]

I would give the newform research package a try.  Think it's around $3100.  I'm quite happy with mine.  All you have to do is add the cd transport.  The Beringer crossover will decode 24/96 digital bitstreams.

[DeanSheen]

>>>but I'm very sure that it'll easily beat the Outlaw/eARTwo combo for both HT and FAAAR more critical 2-chan. use which in itself is enough to justify it's ~$1,000 total cost compared to an $800 pre/pro (which is typically itself called damn close or equal to several $2-3K pre/pros), and a several thousand dollar dig. amp <<<<

AZRYAN.... Easliy is a strong word in this context.  I have a hard time believing that the Panny is gonna just crush the Ear.  Keep us updated on your progress and thanks for the writeup.

ERIC.... Always the well thought out voice of reason.  

Has anyone tried this in a full HT setup?  I'm just wondering if this thing can really hold up to a full hour and a half of 5 speaker punishment.  The shelf life question is a great issue.  I doubt that a $300 product is built to last for long time.  Perhaps I'm a touch bitter here as I just ordered a 950 but I'm quite sure I will be happy plus I get to live with the knowledge that the 950 and 5 SS monoblocks will last for years to come and have more than enough headroom to drive the speakers I have.

I'm still trying to get my head around the Ear vs. Panny question.  Having heard the Ear once, I was blown away and I know that the designer has spent many hours refining his product.  I cant see how the Panny can just come in and blow that out of the water.  What I would really like to see is cheaper EAR's or similar quality digital amps at lower pricepoints.  For my own use, I'm not ready to jump on this bandwagon.  I do have a friend with the stock 25 that has been breaking it in for about 2 weeks.  After a month we will be bringing it over and doing an A/B to see what we think.  That being said, I am very excited about the Panny as a possible solution for friends and family that need a system and would never consider spending what we do on this hobby and that is a very good thing indeed.

[azryan]

"-Easliy is a strong word in this context. I have a hard time believing that the Panny is gonna just crush the Ear. Keep us updated on your progress and thanks for the writeup.-"

You mean the eARTwo getting it's signal from the OUtlaw pre/pro. That is of course a VERY important point.
An amp can only put gain to what you put into it.

I was looking to get a killer pre amp and killer DAC for 2-chan. to replace the Outlaw for 2-chan.

I have little doubt that what I would have done would have also easily beat the Outlaw/eAR combo.

When I say the modded Pannie XR45 easliy beating the Outlaw/eAR... I say this having directly compared the stock XR25 to this combo, and there were a lot of similarites and actually better detail from the cheap Pannie.
The Outlaw/eAR put out a more realistic sound. The Pannie still had a much more dry/processed sound.

It wasn't really broken in at the time though which is a very unfair fight.

It's gotten better. I'm not thrilled with it, but I could live with it as is. It's not hard to imagine a significant step up from modding the better XR45, and I think that would easily beat the Outlaw/eAR combo.

And I was looking for better than the Outlaw/eAR, but really... I wasn't looking for that much better. Just a little smoother on the highs really.

I've heard tons of mega buck systems in well set-up Hi-Fi shops and SO many just at the last CES and nothing stomped on my home system IMO.

Nothing at all sounded like it was a massive stellar leap above it to justify the massive stellar leap in cost that nearly all of these systems were.

Just my opinion though. That's all.

I think we're getting to the point where we are really able to pull almost everything out a recording and there's not much better you can get unless you try to get a certain 'sound'. That you can play with for decades if you feel like it.

[azryan]

Oh.... and I've watched a lot of DVD's on the Pannie and it does hold up.
I'm going to watch T3 tonight, but I've already gone through the awful Star Wars :TPM which is about as tough as you can get and it's fine.

I do have much more effi. speakers than most do though.

You can always put the mains to 'small'. That's alwasy how I ran the Oultaw for movies, but I actually have been running the Pannie in 'Large'.
It's totally fine. The little quiet fan keeps it cool when pushing a lot of current.

I find the 100Hz x-over on it to not be that big a deal either. The diff. between 100 and 80 is almost nothing. The quality of your sub will make a much bigger diff. IMO. as to how it blends w/ your mains and into your room and if it's directional.

I find my dual Adire Tempests (both in the same Left corner) non-directional.

I think the point of 'holding up' is taking a look at what's inside and what might break.

It's mostly circuit boards. They last. Then parts like caps and such will last forever almost.

You can look at how many eAR amps have died and ask if you'd rather have something that costly die?

I've got a cheapo old Sony CD player that still works. I doubt I'm the only one with similar crappy and very old still working gear.

It's usually the moving parts that break.

[DeanSheen]

Thanks for  your extensive qulifications.  That makes much more sense to me.

Anyone know what the PS cap is?  & has anyone come up with a mod yet to improve the analog in's?

[azryan]

Well,
Wayne has modded the analog inputs on his Pannie, but said the digital in is just so much better that I think he's thinking of mainly just modding that element and telling people there are other options for analog.

I'd think he'd be able to go nuts on the multichan. analog in as an 'option' beyond the standard HT mod package?

Up to him.

[maxwalrath]

Besides music I would also want mine for watching HBO and sports on TV, and since it's only a matter of upgrading a few caps, I think he told me it will be optional. Not too much time or $$ to do, I believe.

[azryan]

Hmm.... so you can't send a digital signal out for TV?

I guess I didn't think of that. I've got DishNet w/ an optical output, and even my PS2's got an optical out. Hell.... maybe Wayne could remove a bunch of RCA jacks I totally don't use to make space for full 6 chan. binding posts?

[maxwalrath]

The signals from a cable or satalite come to the panasonic in analog, right? I don't know what kind of outs my directv has...I just know I always used the analog out.

[Brad]

I use the digital out on my DirecTV box(Tosh DST-3000).  Some movies, HD shows, etc, are broadcast in 5.1, which you'd miss out on going to the analog stereo outputs.

[maxwalrath]

Hell.... maybe Wayne could remove a bunch of RCA jacks I totally don't use to make space for full 6 chan. binding posts?[/quote]

Interesting idea if it was possible. With a tuner built in and sticking with a cd/dvd combo with a digital out, I don't think I'd have a need for any more than three other sets of RCA ins. Wonder if it's possible and what the time/costs would be for Wayne...

[maxwalrath]

Brad, can I get "digital signal quality" in steteo? Is it better? I have a 2 channel set up only.

[Brad]

It's limited to the signal that Directv (or Dish or whoever your provider is sending).  On some channels, they really compress the heck out of the video and audio.

But if you go digital out from the Satelllite box direct to the Panny, you're still  saving a d/a and a/d conversion, which should result in a noticeable improvement in the sound.   The full digital signal path is what makes the Panny sound so good (IMO).

[maxwalrath]

Sounds like I might be better off getting a long digital cable and switching sources between cd and tv.

[dwk]

Well,

I'd think he'd be able to go nuts on the multichan. analog in as an 'option' beyond the standard HT mod package?

Up to him.

Some quick thoughts, since the analog performance of the Panny units seems to be growing in interest....

The converters used in the Panny receivers (or at least the XR25 that I have, and there's no reason I could see for them being different in the 45) are CS5361's, which are actually pretty good converters. The problem is that they use a single-ended 5v supply, and require a differential signal which of course should be floated at about 2.5v.  Thus, there is a bunch of circuitry to convert from single-ended to differential, and to float the input. I'd guess at least 2 op-amp stages and a pair of coupling caps but I haven't seen the schematic so that's a guess.

For anyone looking to do an all-out analog section, I'd seriously look into transformer coupled inputs using some decent iron. It would be somewhat expensive, but it's unlikely you could better it using chips etc without some pretty serious effort.  Simply float the a center-tapped secondary at 2.5V and match the gain (you need about 2V rms output) to the output of your player and then run them straight into the A/D converters (pretty easily accessable in the XR25). An S&B LO410 @$45 each (Bent Audio prices, don't know how they compare) would probably work pretty well if you can get by with 1:1- only $270 in parts for 5.1 inputs.

For the SERIOUS modder, follow the 'multichannel digital link' thread on diyaudio for an approach that transmits DVD-A via a digital interface into the Panny. Requires modding both the player and receiver, of course.