The Panny with "high end" speakers?

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azryan

The Panny with "high end" speakers?
« Reply #60 on: 6 Feb 2004, 07:46 pm »
Just to add (or repeat) I DO NOT think in stock form that this thing is astounding in 2-chan (or HT either).
Like Jackman and others have said it's great for the price but not an option for replacing killer gear.

In modded form I hope that's diff.

Stock this thing doesn't do much wrong and really does well on several important things.

I do have what I feel is fairly reasonable and logic faith in the mods actually doing what I hope.

Also.... watched 'Open Range' last night on it in it's DTS track.

Full range on my Alphas, Newform 630's and rear 645 (I keep playing with what/where to put the surrounds).

Gunshots and thunder were just awesome in loudness/dynamics! VERY impressive IMO.
I had the volume at -20 (the 630's were at +6db to the Alphas) so there should still be lots of headroom with it's max volume setting being -0db...

But I guess that doesn't ness. mean you actually have all that gain/headroom just 'cuz it 'looks' like you do?

dwk

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The Panny with "high end" speakers?
« Reply #61 on: 6 Feb 2004, 07:59 pm »
Quote from: jjb
Hate to rain on everyones parade, but a 0.9 THD is not a very clean power source, I would not want to hear this system with middle of the road speakers and certainly not high efficency speakers.   :(


I suspect that this was posted as flame-bait, but anyway.....(and this will hopefully get to Code Chemist's question as well)

First, taking any single measurement as an authoratative indication of sound quality is laughable, *particularly* for a mass-market product where spec sheets are usually somewhat fictional.  In the case of the Panasonic units, it's clear that they *really* wanted to get the 100w/ch number, so they just threw out whatever the number happened to be.

I don't see any lit on a TAS5036/5182 setup as in the XR25/45, but the docs for the TAS5076/5182 EVM are enlightening. The 5076 performs a bit better than the 5036, but the trends should be similar.

The primary observation is that the distortion at low power is significantly lower than at full power - like all amps the distortion skyrockets when you start to hit your headroom limits. The distortion numbers for moderate levels (<10W say) are around 0.015% to 0.025%. It rises to 0.1% at high power (95+W) before hitting the wall at 100W at which point the curve goes more or less vertical.

The panny units might be slightly higher than this, but there's no reason to think they'll be substantially different at moderate levels - maybe 2-3dB worse. So, it really isn't at all out of line with other amps/receivers in terms of the numbers. It would be very interesting to compare the spectral balance of the harmonics to see whether there is anything interesting there.

In terms of the source of distortion, the biggest non-changeable sources are probably jitter on the master modulator clock (since it's derived via PLL from the I2S master clock) and the output bridge drivers/mosfets - the timing on the outputs is probably the main source of higher-harmonic distortion in the non-feedback Equibit process.  

The two biggest addressable contributors will be the power supply and the inductors in the output reconstruction filter.  Waynes mods probably help a bit on the PS front by reducing the ESR of the supply. I don't believe that Wayne does anything on the output filter side, though.

You could probably do a whole lot more on the PS front with more extensive mods, but there isn't much room inside the case and you have to be careful with layout due to the EMI from the switching noise in the vicinity of the output stages. Adding a carefully selected bypass cap or two the the 'lytic at each bridge output to give a good low ESR over the cmoplete audio band would be great. Running it off batteries would be even better.

Bypassing the output inductors altogether would be a great way to significantly reduce distortion - particularly IMD - but you'd be dumping a ton of 386kHz switching noise down your speaker cable which is not a stellar idea.  For anyone willing to do major surgery, putting the amp into a larger case and using high-guage air-core inductors would be an interesting mod, but you'd have to figure out how to shield them. I believe Tact does something like this in their Equibit amps.

OBF

The Panny with "high end" speakers?
« Reply #62 on: 6 Feb 2004, 09:18 pm »
Quote from: dwk
For anyone willing to do major surgery, putting the amp into a larger case and using high-guage air-core inductors would be an interesting mod, but you'd have to figure out how to shield them.


Interesting info dwk.  If aesthetics were not a concern, what would you think about housing the air-cores in a seperate box that could be shielded as needed?

IanVan

The Panny with "high end" speakers?
« Reply #63 on: 9 Feb 2004, 06:42 pm »
Quote from: jjb
Hate to rain on everyones parade, but a 0.9 THD is not a very clean power source, I would not want to hear this system with middle of the road speakers and certainly not high efficency speakers.   :(


With my moderately efficient Europa's, listening at 8' away, I cannot tolerate listening levels anywhere near the point where the THD becomes audible. And I like LOUD music.

Remember that the 0.9 number is at 100 Watts. At lower levels it is very low, in line with other quality amps.

Jack Gilvey

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The Panny with "high end" speakers?
« Reply #64 on: 12 Feb 2004, 09:40 pm »
I love when people think they're "raining on everyone's parade", as if their words carried prodigious weight and stopped everyone in their tracks.

hometheaterdoc

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The Panny with "high end" speakers?
« Reply #65 on: 12 Feb 2004, 10:20 pm »
I haven't weighed in on this subject in quite some time.  I was the person who bought both a 25 and a 45 to do a comparison of the two units, including blind testing.  I posted my results under the ssangste moniker at AVS Forum.  If I recall correctly, ABEX then copied my review to other web sites.

I own and run a custom install/ high end retail business.  So take my comments with the appropriate grain of salt since I also sell some of the equipment I talk about.  I can also purchase and sell the pannies, but my distributor price is not competitive with other web vendors and it is less of a hassle to just point people in their direction when recommending the unit than to sell it and make no money off it.

The panny 25 and 45 are absolute steals at their price point for all the features and value they provide.  You get 6 channels of amplification and surround sound decoding, as well as remote volume.  They're better than every single receiver I have heard at, and quite a bit above, their price points.  All kinds of detail, great bass, but very thin sounding and flat soundstage.

Should you replace your high end, mega buck stuff with a panny?  Only you can decide that.  I've heard a lot of god awful high end audio gear over the years.  I can see how some people might prefer this receiver to it.  Just because something is expensive does NOT mean it sounds good.

Having said that, this receiver is nowhere even close to being in the same league as a lot of higher end gear.  I've built tube amps for years and it doesn't measure up to any of the ones I've built.  I, right now, have it in the same rack as a Bel Canto Evo2i (with DAC2) and the Bel Canto PrePro/Evo6 combo.  I've also in the past few weeks done head to heads with it and Consonance gear, as well as a tube preamp and Carver Tripath pro amp combo.  To continue to abuse terms: Every single piece of comparison gear blew the doors off the Panny.  It wasn't even close.  But then again, that was 10-30 times more expensive equipment.  To some people, the extra cost isn't worth it.  To someone who can hear and wants the better sound, it's a no brainer....

I have pointed at least 30 people to the Panny in the past few months because that was their budget, or they were the type of customer that just wasn't going to hear a difference that higher priced gear could do for them.  It's a great little receiver.  Top of the line, best amplifier ever, sell all your high end gear type of amplifier it is NOT.

I just wanted to temper the enthusiasm a bit.  Continue as if I was never here......

Carlman

The Panny with "high end" speakers?
« Reply #66 on: 12 Feb 2004, 10:24 pm »
Quote from: Jack Gilvey
I love when people think they're "raining on everyone's parade", as if their words carried prodigious weight and stopped everyone in their tracks.


Are you kidding, I put it back in the box seconds after I read that post.  I couldn't bare the THD.   :lol: