[Wayner]

At least keep the thread until I've received my el-cheapo digital scale. Some may be curious how the analog v. digital compare......

Wayner 

[toobluvr]

At least keep the thread until I've received my el-cheapo digital scale. Some may be curious how the analog v. digital compare......

Wayner 

Here's how they compare:

*  digital (assuming it is decent quality) will always give more precise readings than Shure.

*  therefore, digital is better than Shure for repeating known and precise settings.

*  despite the digital's accuracy advantage, the Shure will work equally well for initial VTF setup --- provided one uses the iterative tune by ear method.

I don't know of another initial setup method, but would sure like to learn so feel free to chime in if you know of one.

[doug s.]

it is possible that one may want to use the "iterative tune by ear method", but do it in a precise manner, measuring in precise increments as you go.  if that's the case, than a properly calibrated digital tracking force gauge is the way to go....   

personally, while i do own a digital tracking force scale, (that came w/a calibrated weight set), i get perfectly adequate results w/one of these, tho i confess to not being able to notice any difference between, say 1.50g and 1.52g tracking force:


ymmv,

doug s.

[bacobits1]

In this article it explains that VTF will change when adjusting the Arm height for VTA. The same for height of the scale will change VTF if not closely matched to the record thickness. So once VTA is set you have to recheck VTF.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/in_balance_e.html

It is important to have a digital scale when in use to approximate the thickness or height of 1 record when measuring on the platter with the mat. Some digital scales are not the correct height for this purpose and will change the numbers if it is above a record thickness. These changes are all small amounts I'm not sure you can hear.
 
Hey, we are all anal right?
We enjoy tinkering.

D

[toobluvr]

it is possible that one may want to use the "iterative tune by ear method", but do it in a precise manner, measuring in precise increments as you go.  if that's the case, than a properly calibrated digital tracking force gauge is the way to go....   

Agreed, but why would one do so?  What does it achieve?  If the ear is the final arbiter, why does one need to know the actual weight changes during the setup?  Of course, for repeatability purposes,  I understand the importance of knowing the final "ideal" VTF.  To me, this is where the digital scale is most useful.

........tho i confess to not being able to notice any difference between, say 1.50g and 1.52g tracking force

I don't think I can either.  What is that, maybe a lil dust on the headshell?  A slight change in atmospheric pressure?
 

[woodsyi]

sin(1 degree) = 0.0174524064

For a 2 gram VTF,  you are talking about .017gram force change per 1 degree of VTA change (at or near horizontal arm position).

[srb]

...tho i confess to not being able to notice any difference between, say 1.50g and 1.52g tracking force:

These changes are all small amounts I'm not sure you can hear.

Others have said they can hear a .01g difference, let alone a .02g difference!  Perhaps this accessory should be part of the scale purchase:
 

 
Steve

[toobluvr]

So once VTA is set you have to recheck VTF.

Right.....
But since tonality and overall sound changes when VTA is changed, isn't it fair to say that optimal VTF with one VTA setting, will no longer be optimal if the VTA is changed?

If so, once VTA is changed what good is re-setting to the known VTF (given by a precise digital scale) that was optimal for a different VTA?  So we are back to square one where iteration and ears tell us the "correct".

Just a thought.

 

[toobluvr]

 
Others have said they can hear a .01g difference, let alone a .02g difference!  Perhaps this accessory should be part of the scale purchase:
 

 

 

Lotsa folks in audio say lotsa stuff I don't believe.  And lotsa folks exaggerate.  And lotsa folks imagine.

Then again....maybe they truly are gifted.  I dunno.   

[bacobits1]

John, agreed I'll go with that..

But since tonality and overall sound changes when VTA is changed, isn't it fair to say that optimal VTF with one VTA setting, will no longer be optimal if the VTA is changed?

If so, what good is re-setting to the known VTF (given by a precise digital scale) that was optimal for a different VTA?  So we are back to square one where iteration and ears tell us the "correct".

Just a thought.

It all gets pretty stupid after awhile. Your not going to get anymore accuracy out of it.

D

[Wayner]

My DX electronic scale arrived yestaerday, late afternoon. I have to tell you, for around $14, I'm impressed. I first measured ARMod, and found I was off by .03 grams using the Shure SFG2, so I also think that dis-spells the notion that the Shure is not accurate. I don't consider being off by .03 grams a big deal. They specify the accuracy of the scale to +/- .01 grams.

I will find it useful when I measure in the VTF for my Longhorns, to check for trackability as the Shure has an interference problem with the Longhorn and this solves it.

I guess I have to recommend it, but I don't know how long it will last, but right out of the box, it works great.

  

Thanks to Blakep for finding this item.

Wayner 

[toobluvr]

.....and found I was off by .03 grams using the Shure SFG2, so I also think that dis-spells the notion that the Shure is not accurate. I don't consider being off by .03 grams a big deal......

Blasphemy!    You trying to tell me I can't hear the effect of a speck of dust when it lands on my headshell?!     

 

[analognut]

There has been a lot of discussion about VTA changing VTF. IMO that effect is negligible and Personally, I don't worry about that.

But what hasn't been mentioned is that changing VTF has a LARGE effect on the VTA. Increasing VTF decreases the angle of the cantilever, thereby lowering VTA. Conversely, decreasing VTF will increase the cantilever angle, thereby increasing VTA. IMO the changes in the sound that you hear from relatively small changes in VTF are mostly because of this. 

[srb]

I guess I have to recommend it, but I don't know how long it will last, but right out of the box, it works great.

What did the digital scale read when you checked it with a 1 gram calibration weight?
 
Steve

[Wayner]

There has been a lot of discussion about VTA changing VTF. IMO that effect is negligible and Personally, I don't worry about that.

But what hasn't been mentioned is that changing VTF has a LARGE effect on the VTA. Increasing VTF decreases the angle of the cantilever, thereby lowering VTA. Conversely, decreasing VTF will increase the cantilever angle, thereby increasing VTA. IMO the changes in the sound that you hear from relatively small changes in VTF are mostly because of this. 

tooblvr,,,you crack me up! 

Analognut, well, yea. I'll go out on a limb here and think out loud (or type) anyway, and bring up the point of recommended VTF ranges by cart manufacturers. An example is my AT440MLa. Those folks suggest somewhere between 1.0 and 1.8 grams. I find that to be a rather large range, but so be it. The AT folks also recommend 1.4 as optimum. I wonder if the cantilever is designed to have 20 degree VTA at this setting. I therefore, think the effect is somewhat minor, unless the user starts heading out towards the extremes of the VTF range like 1.0 or 1.8 grams and VTA takes a hit. Then one should consider having the pivot end of the arm down/up a hair (depending on VTF) to compensate for the differences. Now we are splitting hairs!

Wayner 

[Wayner]

What did the digital scale read when you checked it with a 1 gram calibration weight?
 
Steve

I don't have a one gram, but have a 2 gram and it measures 2.01 grams. I think that's pretty good.

Wayner 

[srb]

I don't have a one gram, but have a 2 gram and it measures 2.01 grams. I think that's pretty good.

I'd have to agree, particularly at such a low cost!  Those that can hear .01 gram will just have to keep that in mind.
 
Steve

[Wayner]

Well, Steve, keep in mind, trying to dial in exactly 1.5 is like teeter-toter. First it's too much (damn, now it's 1.58) and then go the other way (damn, now it's 1.46) and back and forth and back and forth. But, you eventually get it. Kind of hard to turn a weight adjustment 1/1000 of a turn, if you get my drift.

Wayner

[srb]

Well, Steve, keep in mind, trying to dial in exactly 1.5 is like teeter-toter. First it's too much (damn, now it's 1.58) and then go the other way (damn, now it's 1.46) and back and forth and back and forth. But, you eventually get it. Kind of hard to turn a weight adjustment 1/1000 of a turn, if you get my drift.

I was being a little facetious about 'hearing' .01 gram, but I understand what you're saying.  I suppose some counterweight adjustment mechanisms are easier to dial in than others.
 
Steve