[toobluvr]

To me, initial setup is getting to the VTF that sounds "the best", not getting within the manufacturer's recommended range which, as you point out, can be rather wide.

Hmmmm....interesting concept.  So let me get this straight:  (1) you are able to immediately dial in "the best" VTF without using your ears?  and, (2)  you know in advance that precise value.....right up to the .001 decimal point, of course?   

If so, I admit that the digital scale is better.  However, I don't think most folks can dial in VTF this way.  Matter of fact, I don't know of a single person that is able to do that on initial setup.   

I guess we just have differing opinions on what "initial setup" is.

I don't think this is something that is open to different opinions.  Initial setup is when you are just starting with an unfamiliar cartridge and you know nothing but the mfr. recommended TF range.  The "best" VTF is unknown at this point because you haven't determined it yet thru listening.  Therefore, it is impossible to simply set it at some precisely known value with your super duper accurate to .001g digital scale.

How many definitions are there?  What is your definition?     

I have already clearly explained my approach to initial setup.  You have not.  You keep insisting on your view without offering any support.  So why not simply explain yourself?   I'm all ears.  I'm sure everyone here would welcome your insights on how to simplify setting VTF and zero in quickly on perfect VTF.  And I really wanna learn the secret of knowing upfront "the best" VTF so I can stop fumbling around, stop relying on my ears, and simply dial it in pronto ......to the .001, of course!

 

[srb]

1.  I don't think anyone, no matter how golden their ears, can hear the difference in 10mg of VTF.
 
2.  With the daily variance in humidity and atmospheric pressure, that will be affected minutely anyway.
 
3.  A friend has a digital scale with a spec of +-.005g.  Testing it with a gram/milligram weight set showed it was as much as -.100g off.
 
4.  Any scale, whether a balance type or a digital strain gauge, may be misleading without test calibration using an accurate weight set.
 
Steve

[toobluvr]

1.  I don't think anyone, no matter how golden their ears, can hear the difference in 10mg of VTF.
 

I agree.  But some say they can and I'm not gonna get into that.

My only point is that the Shure can get you excellent VTF results on initial setup...just as good as any digital scale....because of the iterative trial and error way that it is done.  And I also agree that a digital scale is better for precisely repeating known settings.

I always thought these assertions were widely accepted, and not subject to much debate.  But this is audio board where misunderstandings are common, and where almost everything is challenged......often without explanation or support.     

[WntrMute2]

I broke out my simple shure balance and as I was dropping the stylus onto that metal plate with the groove in it I hesitated....Do you guys put the stylus directly on the metal beam or do you place something a little more stylus friendly there?

[srb]

Right in the groove!  I think as long as you're careful, no harm will be done.
 
Steve

[TONEPUB]

I'm with Wayner...   I have a digital, but my Shure is only off by .1g as well.

If you aren't setting up turntables all the time, I'd say spend the money on more
music, or something else fun.

[blakep]

Hmmmm....interesting concept.  So let me get this straight:  (1) you are able to immediately dial in "the best" VTF without using your ears?  and, (2)  you know in advance that precise value.....right up to the .001 decimal point, of course?   

If so, I admit that the digital scale is better.  However, I don't think most folks can dial in VTF this way.  Matter of fact, I don't know of a single person that is able to do that on initial setup.   

I don't think this is something that is open to different opinions.  Initial setup is when you are just starting with an unfamiliar cartridge and you know nothing but the mfr. recommended TF range.  The "best" VTF is unknown at this point because you haven't determined it yet thru listening.  Therefore, it is impossible to simply set it at some precisely known value with your super duper accurate to .001g digital scale.

How many definitions are there?  What is your definition?     

I have already clearly explained my approach to initial setup.  You have not.  You keep insisting on your view without offering any support.  So why not simply explain yourself?   I'm all ears.  I'm sure everyone here would welcome your insights on how to simplify setting VTF and zero in quickly on perfect VTF.  And I really wanna learn the secret of knowing upfront "the best" VTF so I can stop fumbling around, stop relying on my ears, and simply dial it in pronto ......to the .001, of course!

 

If you want to totally ignore what I said (or just completely misunderstand it) that's fine, but try to avoid the sarcasm, eye rolling and taking virtually everything I've said out of context.

Let's cut and paste what I said:

"Combine the much higher accuracy of the digital scale within its margin of error with repeatability in that much smaller margin of error and you have a scale which is better for both initial setup and readjustment if you value both accuracy and your time."

Now, let me spell it out for you.

Any reasonable tonearm can get you within the manufacturer's spec range for VTF. Big deal. The Shure is accurate to within and has a maximum margin of error of  .1 gram (there are lots of reports that it's not as well, but for the sake of argument we'll say it's accurate to within .1 gram). The digital scale I have is accurate within and has a maximum margin of error of  .007 gram.

I do an "initial setup" on my cartridge. I set it up at 2.5 grams (which means that I'm set up between 2.493 and 2.507 grams. I then listen and if I want to change VTF accurately in increments of .025 grams up or down to figure out where the cartridge sounds best, it takes me a minute or two maximum to make that change. Each time I make the change my margin of error is plus or minus .007 grams. By listening AND using the scale I can establish optimum VTF for my system very quickly.

You do an "initial set up" on your cartridge at 2.5 grams with the Shure. So you know that realistically you are between 2.4 and 2.6 grams. Then each time you make a change you have a potential .200 gram variance or anything in between. Put simply, repeatability or no repeatability (and you do acknowledge the digital guage's superiority here), the Shure is not even capable of truly measuring the sweet spot VTF because of its margin of error. Yes, you can get it and set it  by listening, but the Shure gauge is going to be very little help in this regard, the process is going to be infinitely more time consuming and if your VTF drifts off due to changes in temperature/humidity (which it does) or for any other reason, the Shure gauge is incapable of putting you back into the same tight zone due to its much wider variance.

So, in a nutshell, the Shure is inferior to a really accurate (measuring thousandths not hundredths) but not necessarily much more expensive digital gauge for both initial setup and continued maintenance of VTA IMO.

If you want to say that you can't hear the difference in your setup between 1.75 and 1.8 VTF or that it's insignificant and if you want to say that the Shure is just as effective for "initial setup" that's fine too. But someone might want to base their decision on whether to purchase a decent digital gauge on another point of view based on pertinent information and experience as well as opposed to the statement "the Shure is good enough".

A decent digital gauge is really a "no brainer" in light of what they cost now.

[S Clark]

After having taught Chemistry for about 30 years, and having extensive experience with various accuracy scales,  I can assure you that unless your digital gauge came with proof of calibration, it will not be any more accurate than an analogue scale.  It was always surprising to my students that scales supposedly accurate to +-.003 g were often off by .1 grams.  However, they were very good at reproducing the erroneous measurements to within 3/1000 of a gram 

I would have little faith in a published spec on any digital scales that cost less than several hundred dollars.  Calibration weights are essential.

[Ericus Rex]

That's why a few of us bought calibration weight sets to go with it   

After having taught Chemistry for about 30 years, and having extensive experience with various accuracy scales,  I can assure you that unless your digital gauge came with proof of calibration, it will not be any more accurate than an analogue scale.  It was always surprising to my students that scales supposedly accurate to +-.003 g were often off by .1 grams.  However, they were very good at reproducing the erroneous measurements to within 3/1000 of a gram 

I would have little faith in a published spec on any digital scales that cost less than several hundred dollars.  Calibration weights are essential.

[blakep]

After having taught Chemistry for about 30 years, and having extensive experience with various accuracy scales,  I can assure you that unless your digital gauge came with proof of calibration, it will not be any more accurate than an analogue scale.  It was always surprising to my students that scales supposedly accurate to +-.003 g were often off by .1 grams.  However, they were very good at reproducing the erroneous measurements to within 3/1000 of a gram 

I would have little faith in a published spec on any digital scales that cost less than several hundred dollars.  Calibration weights are essential.

I'm tiring of having to repeat myself in this thread but apparently it's neccessary. While I can't speak to the accuracy of all the Canrong's, being the skeptic I am, I sent mine off to work with my wife, who has been a resarcher for about 25 years, shortly after receiving it. She tested it against two scales in the lab, one measuring to thousandths of a gram, the other measuring to 4 decimal places or ten thousandths of a gram. Price of those scales:  $1000-$2000 (they do measure heavier weights though ).

Result: the scale I have is accurate to .007 grams.

I also have a calibration weight that came with my scale and the expensive scales confirmed it does indeed weigh 5 grams as well

Maybe I just got lucky and got a good one but I doubt it.

[Ericus Rex]

Thanks for that link, blakep.  At $13.40 shipped it's hard to justify paying more for less accuracy (buying a Shure).  Repeated below:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.16269

[S Clark]

I'm tiring of having to repeat myself in this thread but apparently it's neccessary. While I can't speak to the accuracy of all the Canrong's, being the skeptic I am, I sent mine off to work with my wife, who has been a resarcher for about 25 years, shortly after receiving it. She tested it against two scales in the lab, one measuring to thousandths of a gram, the other measuring to 4 decimal places or ten thousandths of a gram. Price of those scales:  $1000-$2000 (they do measure heavier weights though ).

Result: the scale I have is accurate to .007 grams.

I also have a calibration weight that came with my scale and the expensive scales confirmed it does indeed weigh 5 grams as well

Maybe I just got lucky and got a good one but I doubt it.

Glad you got a great deal.  My experience has been that you were lucky.  To repeat my main point: Calibration is the key.

[gerald porzio]

Drug dealers, who would never qualify for a GED, will attest to the accuracy of the digital scales. Audiophiles have these pioneers to thank for the availability & affordability of digital scales.

[toobluvr]

You are profoundly confused, my friend.  Since you were so kind to spell things out for me, I will return the favor.....with baby steps so maybe you will get it this time.

Any reasonable tonearm can get you within the manufacturer's spec range for VTF. Big deal.

Unless you have a calibrated counterweight (most tomearms do not) and you use the stylus float method (as per Wayner in Reply 3), it is impossible to set even approximate VTF with a tonearm.   A scale is used.

You do an "initial set up" on your cartridge at 2.5 grams with the Shure. So you know that realistically you are between 2.4 and 2.6 grams.

Correct.  But not knowing precise VTF initially means absolutely nothing.  The idea is to get close with the scale, and then use your ears and an iterative process to find optimal.  I consider the .1g error that the Shure gives as close enough.

Then each time you make a change you have a potential .200 gram variance or anything in between.

Absolutely incorrect!   You have a gross misunderstanding of the function of a scale during initial setup.  If you understood the method you would not be making some of these statements.

First step:  I use scale to put me midpoint of the rec'd VTF range.  Its job is done....I don't touch it afterwards!  It is not used to make changes.  It is not used to measure changes.  It therefore is not imparting any imprecision to the process.

To dial things in I simply move the counterweight up and down around the midpoint in tiny incremental amounts and listen each time.    I keep doing this iteratively:  adjust listen.....adjust listen....adjust listen...till it sounds "correct".  The Shure is tucked away in its lil storage box the whole time. 

This is the whole point of what you are missing:  the scale is not used for making or measuring adjustments so its accuracy or lack thereof is completely irrelevant.   This must be the 4th time I have said this exact same thing, and you still don't get it.  So apparently you are the one not reading, not understanding and misconstruing.

Put simply, repeatability or no repeatability......the Shure is not even capable of truly measuring the sweet spot VTF because of its margin of error.

Completely irrelevant with regards to initial VTF setup.  Not knowing the precise tracking force that ultimately results in no way whatsoever precludes or hinders me from obtaining it during setup.  You are however correct that repeatability is difficult d/t the Shure's lack of precision.  I have already conceded this...several times.

Yes, you can get it and set it  by listening, but the Shure gauge is going to be very little help in this regard, the process is going to be infinitely more time consuming and.......

Nonsence.  On initial setup, the gauge (any gauge) does not find the correct VTF.  It gets you close, then your ear does the rest.  The Shure will be no more time consuming than any other gauge.  Since you insist it is, tell us how the digital scale gets you to optimum VTF faster.  What method do you use?  I asked you this previously and you have yet to answer.  I assume because you can't.

the Shure gauge is incapable of putting you back into the same tight zone due to its much wider variance.

I have already conceded (several times) that the digital is superior for precise repeatability.

So, in a nutshell, the Shure is inferior.......for both initial setup and continued maintenance of VTA IMO.

Absolutely incorrect about initial VTF setup.  Since the method is identical for both scales, the digital offers no superiority over the Shure.  You assert it does, yet you have failed to support your claims.

I concede the repeatability point......again.

BTW.....a scale is used to measure VTF not VTA.

If you want to say that you can't hear the difference in your setup between 1.75 and 1.8 VTF or that it's insignificant

Not only will I say that I can't,  I will say that you can't either!   

and if you want to say that the Shure is just as effective for "initial setup" that's fine too.

Indeed I do.  And it is.  And I have explained why.

But someone might want to base their decision on whether to purchase a decent digital gauge on another point of view based on pertinent information and experience as well as opposed to the statement "the Shure is good enough".

I never said one should choose Shure over digital.  I simply said Shure accomplishes initial VTF setup equally well, and I have explained why.  You disagree, yet have failed to make a good arguement for digital superiority. 

I have provided pertinent info.  You have provided inaccuracies and confusion.

A decent digital gauge is really a "no brainer" in light of what they cost now.

Agreed!  Years ago they were expensive, that's why I have the Shure.

Made it through with no rolling eyes.  Happy blakep?

[TheChairGuy]

Let's just keep it civil, guys...I sense an escalation in the proceedings

Let's remember we are talking about tracking force gauges...hardly life-changing stuff (for perspective)

Thanks,

John / Facilitator Vinyl Circle.

[toobluvr]

I agree Mr. John formerly of LI.

Very frustrating for me when someone can't back up their claims, and tell me I'm wrong when I know I'm right!   

Apologies for my tone.

[blakep]

You are profoundly confused, my friend.  Since you were so kind to spell things out for me, I will return the favor.....with baby steps so maybe you will get it this time.

Unless you have a calibrated counterweight (most tomearms do not) and you use the stylus float method (as per Wayner in Reply 3), it is impossible to set even approximate VTF with a tonearm.   A scale is used.

Seriously, how do you dream up this drivel? "Impossible to set even approximate VTF with a tonearm"?

The rest of your post is even less worthy of a response. Good nitpick though on the VTA typo.

My apologies for all my confusion. Have a nice evening.

[Ericus Rex]

You've both made your argument...several times.  Move on.

[Wayner]

Thanks for that link, blakep.  At $13.40 shipped it's hard to justify paying more for less accuracy (buying a Shure).  Repeated below:

http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.16269

Gentlemen, I have ordered the $13.40 digital scale from DX (with free shipping). It looks to be the exact model that Music Direct is selling for $79. At this price, I thought I couldn't go wrong. I can use it to weigh Longhorns before assembly. It will be  interesting to do direct comparisons to either scale. I have several reference weights (1/4, 1/2, 1 and 2 gram) to check accuracy.

I still am an old fashioned guy and have a routine for setting VTF as I'm sure all of you do. Now that I'm doing Longhorns for Frank, I hope this will help me dial in higher value VTF as the Longhorn interferes with the Shure scale beyond 1.5 grams.

Wayner 

[TheChairGuy]

You've both made your argument...several times.  Move on.

Amen to that.

John/toobluvr....I KNOW you KNOW you shouldn't have made that last post (you're way smarter than that) but emotions got the best of you, so I pruned and tossed it.

Blakep...please don't retaliate to anything more. 

There is simply nothing more gained from one-upsmanship regarding a little Shure or digital VTF scale.  Leave it be at what it is.  After a day of further looking at it, I may just prune all the comments from the topic anyhow....but I'll certainly do so if there is further back-and-forth between you.

John / Faciltator