[I.Greyhound Fan]

I'm looking to add a sub woofer to my 2ch system which is my Magnepan 1.6's, Parasound Halo A21 amp and a Van Alstine Ultra Preamp.  I'm considering a Velodyne DD 10 or 12, Martin Logan Abyss 10" or the Martin Logan Grotto.  My budget is around $1100.  I've found a used Grotto i for $900, used Velodyne DD 12 for $1K and a new ML Abyss on closeout for $600.  I auditioned a new DD12 improperly set up and I was not impressed.  I also listened to a REL 305 and it was smooth and musical but it was $1600 and out of budget.  I have been unable to find an Abyss or Grotto i locally to audition but I have heard the ML Dynamo 10" old version and it was very musical and fast.

Any comments would be much appreciated.  Thanks!

Larry

[Nuance]

Rythmik D15SE.  I've directly compared it to a JL Audio Fathom 112, and while the JL will outperform it as far as maximum output goes, the Rythmik hangs with it sound quality wise until it reaches its maximum excursion.  The JL will play louder without distortion, but if this is a 2-channel system I doubt you'll run out of headroom with the Rythmik. 

Some other options are:

Epik Subwoofers
SVSound
HSU

In my opinion all four of the brands I mentioned will outperform the Velodyne, Martin Logan, and Rel when comparing dollar to dollar.  In fact, they'll probably outperform them by a landslide. 

Happy hunting.

Just my $0.02.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I've considered the Rythmik but its too big at 15".  I want something smaller.

The Velodyne and Grotto i are nice because they are servo controlled and the Velodyne comes with a remote and the equalizer to tune the sub. 

I've considered the HSU and SVS's as well.

[poseidonsvoice]

You can also get a 12 inch version of the Rythmik you know.

In addition to what Nuance mentioned, please also consider: Elemental designs.

I would definitely consider purchasing at least a PAIR of subs (within your $1100 to $1200 budget) instead of just one.

Best,

Anand.

[JimJ]

Just curious, what's wrong with a 15"?

[turkey]

I would definitely consider purchasing a PAIR of subs (within your $1100 to $1200 budget) instead of just one.

I've found that 3 inexpensive subs work a whole lot better than one expensive one ever did.

[poseidonsvoice]

Turkey,

I should've said AT least a pair of subs.

However, not everybody has that kind of real estate (space in the room) and the buyer was originally only wanting one! And we have a $1100 budget and no room for DIY. If possible, 3 or 4 ten inch or eight inch subs, you should have good performance down to 30 Hz.

3 subs per Geddes or 2/4 subs per Todd Welti. The buyer will need to read up on understanding how eigenmodes are very significant in all "small" rooms below 200 Hz.

It's going to be a whole lot better than one, unless its equalized and only for one fella sitting in one spot. But two will still be mucho better than one, imho for multiple listeners. 3 even better still. 4 is great but then you run into diminished returns for your investment, and the cost goes up, up, up.

Anand.

[poseidonsvoice]

Just curious, what's wrong with a 15"?

The OP found the size of 15 inch subs to be too large for his tastes/room. See previous posts.

Anand.

[turkey]

Turkey,

I should've said AT least a pair of subs.

However, not everybody has that kind of real estate (space in the room) and the buyer was originally only wanting one! And we have a $1100 budget and no room for DIY. If possible, 3 or 4 ten inch or eight inch subs, you should have good performance down to 30 Hz.

I figured he had a fairly large, open room since he has Maggie 1.6's.

It should also be possible to get 3 subs for well under $1100. They don't have to be anything special.

[Nuance]

As poseidonsvoice mentioned, Rythmik makes a 12" servo subwoofer.  I also forgot to mention, Elemental Designs - thanks, poseidonsvoice.

Hey poseidon, I noticed you sign your posts with Anand.  I don't suppose you're the same Anand that runs Anandtech.com? 

I've found that 3 inexpensive subs work a whole lot better than one expensive one ever did.

Good point.  Using the Geddes method really works, at least based on what I've seen and heard.  Sometimes its not plausible, though; guess it depends on individual circumstances. 

[I.Greyhound Fan]

My room is 17'x17'x10' and space is at a premium with a 52" TV, my Maggies and a large stereo rack with 60# bruit Parasound  amp,  VA preamp, DAC, and a 55# Adcom AVR, BR player, CD player, SACDP and an old Velodyne sub dedicated to HT use.

WAF is an issue with adding another sub.  So I want it 12" or less.  I'll give a look to the Rythmik 12".  Thanks for the reply's.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

What do you guys think about this Rythmik sub and musicality-

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

It's a great price and loaded with features and looks like it will keep up with my Magnepans.  I'm looking for a sub for 2ch music only with the croos over set at 40hz.

[poseidonsvoice]

I figured he had a fairly large, open room since he has Maggie 1.6's.

It should also be possible to get 3 subs for well under $1100. They don't have to be anything special.

Good. One option I see are (3) of the $350 subs from Elemental, Outlaw, Hsu or SVS. But if you are out for servo, then you might be out of luck.

Anand.

[Nuance]

What do you guys think about this Rythmik sub and musicality-

http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F12SE.html

It's a great price and loaded with features and looks like it will keep up with my Magnepans.  I'm looking for a sub for 2ch music only with the croos over set at 40hz.

Looks like a winner.  I heard it's bigger brother (the 15") and its fantastic, so I'd imagine this will be as well.  It should mate very nicely with your Maggies.

[turkey]

an old Velodyne sub dedicated to HT use.

Does it have to be only for HT use? Is there any way you could share 2 subs?

Multiple subs really is the way to go, and 2 is certainly better than 1. They'll tend to work better in the room, and each sub is only doing part of the work, so they're just loafing and they sound better because of that too.

[doug s.]

you definitely want at least two subs.  even better would be to use an outboard x-over, so your mains can be crossed over and not have to do full-range.  you can use an active outboard x-over, set at ~40-80hz, and set the powered sub's built-in x-ver to its max position, effectively bypasing it.

at your budget, i'd consider these; then save for a x-over:
http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=77300.msg732783;topicseen#new


or, if you want to shop new, get two to four of these ($199 ea shipped); and a marchand x-over, or a pro-audio x-over from dbx, behrenger, rane, art, etc:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16836108120&ATT=36-108-120&CMP=AFC-C8Junction&nm_mc=AFC-C8Junction&cm_mmc=AFC-C8Junction-_-Home%20Audio%20Speakers-_-Yamaha-_-36108120&AID=10440897&PID=1275588&SID=6736cc3d-5ea4-4caf-bed4-71b92d769796


doug s.

[Nuance]

I suppose we should get this straightened out right here, right now:

Greyhound Fan, do you want/can you accommodate two subwoofers?  If not, I completely understand, and if so then we can give you some more recommendations.

[I.Greyhound Fan]

I can't accommodate 2 subs.  I already have an older inexpensive Velodyne CHT-8 for HT use in a separate HT system in the same room.  So 3 subs are not an option for the WAF.  I need a good non ported fast sub to go with the Magnepans,  hence the Martin Logan, Velodyne DD and Rythmik subs.  They are all non ported.

Pesonally, I don't see the point of having 2 subs for my application which is 2ch music with the sub filling in below 40hz, anything above that will be handled by the magnepans.  I'm not a bass freak and I want the sub to blend in seamlessly and disappear.

I do see the point of dual subs in a large room or when they are crossed over at a higher frequency.

[low.pfile]

Larry,

I am no sub expert, but I do have a ML Abyss in my 2 channel system, it fills out the octave below my devore speakers for music very nicely and I listen to lots of music (electronica/rock) that definitely has content in the low 20s. I compared it to a REL at a Magnolia and did not hear a subustantial difference with my test tracks (not sure the REL was ideally set up--they are a bit tricky) and the REL was 1.5x the price.  The difference between the 10" ML Dynamo was significant to me (lower reach).

BTW it's a 12" driver, not 10". The perks of the Abyss is it can be forward firing or downward firing (my setup). It's very well finished and is compact, which were among my criteria.

I also have it connected to my AVR for HT duty and it is more than enough for me (sure there are lower and louder) but for my dual use (HT and music) it suits me very well. no disappointment (except not getting it for $600 like I see on buy.com!--but I chalk that up to utility cost over the last 3 years)

It is very tight sounding sub. and doesn't bottom out--I only have the level set to 4 (out of 10 max) for music I usually have the level set to 3. I use the crossovers on the sub for music and use my AVR Xovers for movies.

Have fun.

[Nuance]

I can't accommodate 2 subs.  I already have an older inexpensive Velodyne CHT-8 for HT use in a separate HT system in the same room.  So 3 subs are not an option for the WAF.  I need a good non ported fast sub to go with the Magnepans,  hence the Martin Logan, Velodyne DD and Rythmik subs.  They are all non ported.

Pesonally, I don't see the point of having 2 subs for my application which is 2ch music with the sub filling in below 40hz, anything above that will be handled by the magnepans.  I'm not a bass freak and I want the sub to blend in seamlessly and disappear.

I do see the point of dual subs in a large room or when they are crossed over at a higher frequency.

I figured, but I wanted it to be clear to everyone.  With that said, I second my own recommendation of the Rythmik 12" sealed subwoofer with servo technology.  Of course, you could build your own, but that's not always practical.

I've been researching the Geddes approach, and while it looks good on paper, I've had better luck using the reverse method: using multiple subs for the ULF, and one sub for the upper bass.  In my friend's application (4 subwoofers), the best results were achieve by using the subwoofer closest to the mains throughout the full spectrum (15 to 120Hz).  We then used three other subwoofers at verious frequncies to "fill in the gaps," applying delay to each individual subwoofer (something Geddes says isn't necessary, but certainly was in this system).  Crucial setup was also key in achieving great bass, something the good Doctor also says isn't necessary.  So now I am confused by Earl's theory...  Anyone else run into this?  Maybe I should start my own thread...