[rcag_ils]

I wanted a VPI 19 years ago, but the plan didn't fall through due to various reasons, mainly the fund.

Now that I am ready to dive into high end analog gear, buy sadly, the 19 are no longer available, and I don't really want to get an used one, not to mention that a good used one is hard to come by.

I looked into the VPI Scout series, and I understand that VPI has stopped making turntable with spring suspension.

So what is it? Does it mean that the suspensionless turntable are more superier, or is it just cheaper to make?

Also, the new MK-4 kit for the old HW-19 now is basically just a regular Scout platter. So does it mean that the thin Acrylic platter is more superier than the old lead filled 2" thick black acrylic MK-4 platter, or is it just cheaper to make?

Has VPI gone down the path of producing cheaper stuff for higher volume sale?

[BobM]

I think like most manufacturers, VPI makes model changes as they continue to research new developments and current "preferences" among turntable users. They have always had a philosophy of improvement, or at least change. They've also tried to compete at both the mid/lower end of the market and the upper end.

I still don't know why they discontinued the 19, since it was such a success, unless it was to put more focus on the Scout and it's variations, which has also been a success and probably at a lower manufacturing cost overall.

From all accounts the Classic is a killer at its price point and probably should be where your looking in the VPI lineup for value per $.

[orthobiz]

I have TheChairGuy's 19 and hope to start a thread about all the stuff I did to it. John had the DIY SAMA (pool swim noodles) holding the plinth away from the motor. He also had the spring "suspension" but when I compare it to my Linn Sondek, the HW-19 ain't no suspended table! I currently have the sorbothane corner pucks that are resilient and slightly isolating but really do not qualify as a suspension.

There's a 19 Jr on sale here (I bought the dustcover and tonearm from it); Wayner still has his and I've seen nice ones from time to time on A'gon.

Mine is making good music right now. More about it later...

Paul

[TheChairGuy]

I think Paul/orthobiz has paired my old HW-19 Mk. III with the VPI SDS (outboard speed controller) right from the start.

WITH the SDS, it makes some great music (huge soundstaging).  Without it, I preferred several relatively inexpensive direct drive tables over it.  The SDS is that HUGE a difference I found.

That said, if funds are tight and don't allow for the purchase of the SDS as well....you may not be enthralled with the sound (like me).  We all hear different things so perhaps I'm a one-off, but that was my experience.

Regards, John

[JackD201]

I second the SDS. It made a huge difference with my Aries 2 and I retained them when I traded the Aries 2 for an HRX. If you can find one second hand, not having to switch pulley positions when going between 33 1/3 and 45 alone is worth the money.

My complaint with VPI is with the JMW arms. Setting azimuth which is done by twisting the drop counterweight while retaining the desired VTF is a royal pain.

[BobM]

And once you have an SDS you can get rid of that lousy rubber belt and put some proper silk string there. The increase in PRAT is well worth the experiment.

[rcag_ils]

Let's not drift off topic....

My two main points are:

Is suspensionless tables more superior than spring suspension table, and that's why evey manufacturer including VPI are making them?

Is the new MK 4 kit (which is just a Scout platter) better than the old MK-4 kit platter which is lead + cork filled and heavier, with stronger springs?

I am thinking about getting a Scoutmaster, since there aren't that many mint MK-4 available, even if a mint MK-4 came up, the price they asked for would be equivalent to a new VPI.

[JackD201]

Suspension is only a part of the overall design and implementation. I don't think anyone can generalize one way or another which one is superior.

On the platters, VPI offered two families of choices for most models (dunno about the Classic) and each had a different sound to them. The white acrylic the more "modern" quick and lively sound and the Delrin/Stainless Steel/Delrin sandwiches aka Super Platters which were more muted but weightier in the midbass and bass. The latter more closely resembles the sound of the earlier TNT platters that were lead filled. Choosing between the two  (I had both HRX platters) depended on the cart used. The forward carts like my Clearaudio Titanium matched better with the super platter and my Koetsu Jade and DRT XV-1s the white acrylic. Your cart preference may similarly influence your decision down the road just as it would your choice of arm depending on compliance.

If I were looking at a scoutmaster or super scoutmaster I'd go for the Aries 3. If I was after the HW-19 I'd go with the Classic.

[orthobiz]

I may be oversimplifying but I don't consider my originally "sprung" VPI as a spring suspension. The springs were harder than anything and the tonearm board was firmly mated with the plinth. There was hardly any bounce to it at all.

The Linn, like my old B&O or an AR table bounces where the platter and tonearm move together separate from the plinth.

Am I missing the point? I have a peripheral ring to further dampen things and take out warps; if I put a ring like that on my Linn the platter would be dragging on the plinth!

Paul

[rcag_ils]

About the platter, what I am saying is years ago, the MK-4 upgrade kit platter was lead and cork filled with thick black acrylic.

Now the new MK-4 upgrade kit is a Scout platter. So Is VPI getting stingy on platter, or the Scout platter really better than the old Mk-4 lead and cork filled platter.

I don't know about the new Super platter, or the "Classic", I think the "classic" is kind of ugly.

The Aries 3 w/o arm costs quite a bit more money that a Scoutmaster with arm.

If I wanted to get a Super Scoutmaster, may as well get the TNT.

There are newer VPI coming out now, just can keep up.

[Wayner]

I's say there are superior and inferior designs of both suspension and non-suspended tables. The name of the game, regardless of design approach is to isolate turntable motor noise, and isolate and destroy outboard vibrations from getting to the platter and tonearm.

The AR-XA and XB along with other AR tables were perhaps the best accomplished suspended decks, IMHO, but there were compromises. On AR-XA machines, you were pretty much stuck with the stock arm, unless you were a machinist or had a buddy that was. Some of later day Duals also had suspensions, but were auto or semi-automatic decks and were a tinkerer's dream, but noisy as hell. Thorens also made many models of suspended decks, but they don't seem to get much praise.

VPI's approach is isolation and mass. The motor is completely seperated from the plinth as in the Scout and upwards on the models, with heavier and heavier plinths as you go up the range. Yes, I suppose the HW-19 was expensive to make, but VPI now has taken the die-cast platter of the new classic and is putting that massive platter on all of the decks (perhaps not the Aries 3 or TNT), do get more use (reduce cost of die-casting die). This is a good approach from my experiences.

However, I have a problem with the uni-pivot tonearm on VPIs new models. Others (at the RMAF) have told me they track horse-shit on warped records and have seen the arm bob back and forth in azimuth on some warps.

So while you (and everybody else) are on the great hunt for the best turntable, there are just too many tables with none of them having the perfect solution, again in my humble opinion.

That is one reason that I made ARMod. I love the Rega RB300 arm (disliked the rest of the deck), love the AR platter (disliked the rest of the deck) and had little choice but to use a VPI motor. My plinth in small and has a hollow inside of it, filled with plasticlay, the motor housing is hollow and also filled with platiclay. The entire assembly sits on layers of damping material, then on a slab of granite, then on some Audio Technics footers. Yes, it's the best table here. It beats my HW-19jr, the Empire, and the 2 Technics. But it's a one of a kind. I like the HW-19jr, but it just is boring. Perhaps it's the AudioQuest PT-6 tonearm or as John, TheChairGuy and others have suggested, it needs the VPI SDS module. I don't know. The best bang for the buck is still the Technics SL-1200.

Here is what bothers me about the new VPIs. First, there is not a good working anti-skating device for the uni-pivot tonearm. I've heard from others that it just really doesn't work all that well. Second is the uni-pivot tonearm. Other then that, I love the rest of the deck. I would like to hear a Rega RB300 on a Scout. I'll bet it would be something I could really fall for. And then there is the flaw in the Rega tonearms.....why can't you people figure out a simple VTA adjustment????? Now you've cheaped out the RB arm (RB301) and put a cheap 3 point screw base on it. The Pete Riggle VTA device doesn't work with it at all. Perhaps a VPI with an SME or a nice Robin arm, hell even a Jelco arm (AudioQuest) would be nice.

I'd like to buy a higher end VPI too, cause I think they look cool, but I can't.

Wayner

[orthobiz]

So Wayner, do you consider the 19 a suspended or nonsuspended table?

Paul

[BobM]

Yeah, the JW tonearms, although very good arms in general, can be bested by several others. If you like unipivots then they are great, if not then you have a world of choices. In my experience I've found that anti-skate adjustment makes a noiceable difference and is important for the spacial and dynamic aspects of the music. Now that's probably not too important to someone who focuses on tone, but it is to me. Same with VTA (and I only wish my tonearm - Moerch DP6 - had a real-time VTA adjustment now that I have a cartridge that is very sensitive to it).

As for the VPI platters, I never liked the acrylic versions. I have an old MK III platter, but would bump for an old MK IV if I could find one. They fly real quickly when one comes up for sale.

[Wayner]

It's a hybrid? Mine has the sobathane feet on the outside wood frame, supporting the top plinth. The motor is also mounted to the outer wood frame, isolating it from the plinth.

Well, maybe it is a suspended table. Just not the suspension most of us think of when we hear the term. OK, what's the difference if they use  springs or some kind of rubber? OK, it's a suspension deck, but it's going to have a different resonance frequency then the usual spring sprung decks, I'd think. And because of the mass of the plinth (and platter and tonearm) resting on the suspension, the resonance frequency may be pretty much killed. To be honest, I've never heard any motor noise from this deck. Maybe I should get an RB300 for this table?

W

[orthobiz]

Well, the motor on my VPI was absolutely the most vibratory thing on earth. You could feel the vibration in the tonearm. I just did the SAMA and I am in SAMA heaven! Plus, the deck is much quieter.

Paul

[Wayner]

I sitting right here, switching the motor on and off and can't feel any vibrations. Strange.

Wayner

[rcag_ils]

So what are the good things about unipivot tonearm? For the unipivot tonearm azimuth to change, the record would have to be very warpped to do that. Why would we want to listen to warp record anyway?

[Sonny]

So what are the good things about unipivot tonearm? For the unipivot tonearm azimuth to change, the record would have to be very wrapped to do that. Why would we want to listen to warp record anyway?

Sure the record is warped and it sux if you have one and want to listen to it, but my opinion is if the record is warped and it causes my uni-pivot tonearm to fluctuate becuase of the warp, I would think that is a good thing because on the warped recorded the grooves are no longer parallel to the platter, and so the shift in azimuth by the uni-pivot allows it to track the grooves more "accurately", no?   

[orthobiz]

I sitting right here, switching the motor on and off and can't feel any vibrations. Strange.
Wayner

I know my TT has a newer motor (I even have the old motor) and a new bearing (John had it replaced). The SDS helped, especially when I decreased the voltage. But the vibration persisted. With the SAMA it's all history.

As to playing warped records, if it's the only copy I have, I play it!

Paul

[TheChairGuy]

I know my TT has a newer motor (I even have the old motor) and a new bearing (John had it replaced). The SDS helped, especially when I decreased the voltage. But the vibration persisted. With the SAMA it's all history.

As to playing warped records, if it's the only copy I have, I play it!

Paul

The original motor in that deck really had the shakes as I remember it...the replacement was less shaky.  It was worth the measly ~$100 to swap it out.

Like you I used in SAMA mode so it never bothered me (and the SDS took care of the rest of the shakes)...but I think there is some consistency / QA issues at VPI with their motors.  They should all be like Wayner's - absolutely shake-free.

The ($2500) Classic even has what I would deem slightly too aggressive motor sounds.  It's also AC Synchonous of what make I am not sure 

John