[JackD201]

......................Live music venues bear little if any relationship to stereo & MC. Both are artifices & poor ones @ that.

What would be unrealistic expectations is to expect live sounding music from non live multi-track studio recording stitched together with all the overdubs and punch ins and artificial reverb. I mean the musicians don't even record all at once. Take a minimally miked live recording properly done and played back in a system of wide bandwidth, high dynamic range and high resolution and one can easily suspend disbelief that you are "there" in stead of the usual "they are in the room with you". Achieving this is not necessarily a function of expense especially if the individual is blessed with good ears and build and design skills, but it definitely is one of dedication and commitment.

Good stereo isn't about 2 channels and MC isn't about 3,4,5 or 7 plus 1 per se. They are all about achieving a single coherent field which IS what you would get live. It is by very concept the reason for their invention to begin with. If your speaker don't disappear you've failed the first crucial test IMO the succeeding being tone, timbre and dynamics. The OP has happily found his believable sound field. I say, Goodie for him and may more find theirs too!

 

[gerald porzio]

I'm not talking about recording studios & multitrack recordings. Performance venues are what I was specifically referring to. The # of mikes & tracks aside, choose whatever approach suits the recording. Still the sound fields can never be the same - a "believable" sound stage thru the artifice of choice, notwithstanding. This isn't to say that the artifice can't produce hrs. & yrs. of enjoyment.

[Artemis]

*scotty*  My system is 2 channel only

  Speakers-ArtemisEOS/sig.With large Bass modules
  Amps-Pass Labs x-600s
  Pre-amp-PassLabs x-1
  Cd player-Audio Research cd7
  Speaker Wire -MIT 850 evo tri-wire
  interconnects-MIT 330 shotgun
  Misc. Tweaks
New wire is on the way and it should make things even better.My wire from Amp to Pre is made for higher impedence amps and the Pass x600 are on the lower side,also this wire is about 12 years old.I'm moving up to MIT's current Magnum line.It should be interesting... 

[*Scotty*]

The reason for the quality of your reproduced sound-stage and imaging is explained. Nelson Pass's latest circuit designs are VERY GOOD!
In fact you would be hard pressed to beat their overall performance at any price. I would say your primary limitations come from what kind of digital or analogue front end you have and the quality of the recording. The only possible suggestion I have would be to try playback from a hard drive into an external USB dac. The USB dac option would have to have greater transparency,better low level resolution,superior transient attack,better top to bottom coherency and a bigger and more enveloping sound-stage than what you have right now and there is no guarantee that any move in this direction would not be a move sideways rather than forward.
From where I sit I would say if isn't broken don't try to fix it.
You have treated your room so I would quit while you are ahead and sit back and enjoy the music.
Scotty
edited for accuracy

[Artemis]

*Scotty*
              Now you know any audiophile in his right mind would'nt stop if everything perfect.Theres always a weak link..somewhere

[*Scotty*]

Unfortunately it's between the ears of most audiophiles.
Regards,Scotty

[turkey]

I almost never experience pinpoint imaging at the concert hall. Even with soloists I often just hear them as coming from an area.

As for my stereo system, it all depends upon the recording. I hear some with pinpoint imaging and some without, some with depth and some without. I also have some recordings where the speaker disappear, but then there are some where some instruments sound like they're coming directly from one speaker or the other.

[ricmon]

My system is not out of phase

Just checking.  What test or procedures have you performed to make sure your system is not out of phase?  If you have not played a phase test recording you could be guessing.  Just a thought.

Ric

[turkey]

Just checking.  What test or procedures have you performed to make sure your system is not out of phase?  If you have not played a phase test recording you could be guessing.  Just a thought.

Ric

Phase test recording?

You don't need a special recording to hear it. You just play some music and flip the phase on one speaker. One way will give more bass than the other.

[rollo]

Phase test recording?

You don't need a special recording to hear it. You just play some music and flip the phase on one speaker. One way will give more bass than the other.

  Agreed. Or use the invert polarity switch if you have one. The bass will be more focused. The image will not favor one channel over the other as well. You might also notice that sibilance in voice in much reduced or eliminated. Well unless their sucking the mike or its Louis Armstrong.
  When all is right a phantom image is created that gives us that stero effect.


charles

 

[JackD201]

Not all recordings are in phase to begin with. Any number of things can go wrong during the recording stage from mic placement to signal flow errors in patching sends and returns and even at the stereo bus. This isn't talked about much but the issue has become large enough that now many control rooms are fitted with phase scopes that can be handily viewed from the console. It is the reason in fact that some manufacturers have a phase switch and not so much because the particular piece of equipment might be mated to another whose polarity is inverted.

Just thought you guys might like to know.

[turkey]

Not all recordings are in phase to begin with. Any number of things can go wrong during the recording stage from mic placement to signal flow errors in patching sends and returns and even at the stereo bus. This isn't talked about much but the issue has become large enough that now many control rooms are fitted with phase scopes that can be handily viewed from the console. It is the reason in fact that some manufacturers have a phase switch and not so much because the particular piece of equipment might be mated to another whose polarity is inverted.

Just thought you guys might like to know.

With a stereo recording of an acoustic performance (2 mics or more), it is almost certain that some instruments will be recorded out of phase at the higher frequencies. But the same thing can happen when you're sitting in a concert hall with your two ears.

There's really nothing you can do about it. It's just the way things are. You may be able to reduce it by using headphones, but not everyone likes them.

It's much less of a problem at low frequencies, and I don't think I've ever heard a recording where the two channels were obviously out of phase in the bass. Your speakers might be out of phase due to a wiring error though, and that's what I meant when I said just listening and then swapping the + and - on one speaker will fix it.

[turkey]

I actually use a Sunfire TG4 processor that has Bob Carver's Holography imaging, works great on both stereo and multichannel. 

I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Holography Generator. It basically works by feeding some of the L signal into the R speaker and vice versa to reduce crosstalk. If done exactly right, the crosstalk cancels out at your ear. There was also a system called M.A.R.S. that did much the same thing in the speaker itself. Polk had something similar too.

In all cases, the method used for the solutions is less complex than the original problem, and winds up not completely solving it.

I've had my C-9 for about 30 years, IIRC. I take it out once in a while and play with it. It will make a couple of recordings at one listening position sound great (just don't move your head at all!), but then it makes other recordings sound worse. I always wind up putting it back in the closet.

You can do almost the same thing if you put some acoustic foam like Sonex as a barrier between the speakers. I mounted some on a hat. It looked really weird, but it worked as well as the Carver method. Unfortunately, it blocks a basic part of your hearing mechanism, the filtering you get from your head, the head-related transfer function (HRTF). So it still only works on some recordings and makes others sound worse. (Headphones have the same problem.)

I've also come to wonder whether crosstalk is really a major problem. Logically it is a fundamental flaw of stereo speakers. An event in the concert hall produces two events, one in each channel or the stereo recording. No problem so far, the same thing happens with your ears. Then you play it back and the one initial event becomes four events.

The question I would ask is whether it really makes a difference? Is it really a major problem, or only a minor one?

I'm coming to think it's only a minor problem, and the available cures are worse then the disease.

[satfrat]

I have a Carver C-9 Sonic Holography Generator. It basically works by feeding some of the L signal into the R speaker and vice versa to reduce crosstalk. If done exactly right, the crosstalk cancels out at your ear. There was also a system called M.A.R.S. that did much the same thing in the speaker itself. Polk had something similar too.

In all cases, the method used for the solutions is less complex than the original problem, and winds up not completely solving it.

I've had my C-9 for about 30 years, IIRC. I take it out once in a while and play with it. It will make a couple of recordings at one listening position sound great (just don't move your head at all!), but then it makes other recordings sound worse. I always wind up putting it back in the closet.

You can do almost the same thing if you put some acoustic foam like Sonex as a barrier between the speakers. I mounted some on a hat. It looked really weird, but it worked as well as the Carver method. Unfortunately, it blocks a basic part of your hearing mechanism, the filtering you get from your head, the head-related transfer function (HRTF). So it still only works on some recordings and makes others sound worse. (Headphones have the same problem.)

I've also come to wonder whether crosstalk is really a major problem. Logically it is a fundamental flaw of stereo speakers. An event in the concert hall produces two events, one in each channel or the stereo recording. No problem so far, the same thing happens with your ears. Then you play it back and the one initial event becomes four events.

The question I would ask is whether it really makes a difference? Is it really a major problem, or only a minor one?

I'm coming to think it's only a minor problem, and the available cures are worse then the disease.

Being your C-9 is 30 years old and my Sunfire is only 5-6 years old, I'm sure their were advances made to the Holographic design. When used in stereo mode, the highs are somewhat exaggerated and the lows are slightly cut back but the loudspeakers totally disappear and there has sound being thrown to the back of the room. It's like my rear speakers were still on. I really don't use it that often myself as it's not as natural of a sound stage as simply stereo but it is a pleasent change of pace and I'm glad I have that option available with the push of a button.
 
Cheers,
Robin

[turkey]

Being your C-9 is 30 years old and my Sunfire is only 5-6 years old, I'm sure their were advances made to the Holographic design. When used in stereo mode, the highs are

I've seen schematics for the newer stuff and it isn't doing anything different than what I have.

[ricmon]

Phase test recording?

You don't need a special recording to hear it. You just play some music and flip the phase on one speaker. One way will give more bass than the other.

True you don't need any special equipment to hear that a system is out of phase.  But using a test record or cd makes the job easy and repeatable based on a never changing control .....the recorded phase test track.  I prefer this method in conjunction with the others mentioned.

Ric

[*Scotty*]

To reiterate the point of the original post,Artemis and others including myself have this sort of sound-stage routinely created from 2channels without resorting to adding extra components with their attendant insertion losses and degradation of system resolution. It is fairly obvious that manipulation of inter-channel phase relationships is taking place in the studio. It is also appears that this type of information can be lost multiple places in the chain on the way to your ears. The susceptibility to degradation of this information explains the musical wallpaper sound-staging accepted as the norm by many audiophiles. I think the ability to image in three dimensions serves as a litmus test of system fidelity and accuracy of reproduction of the recording.
Scotty

[DaveC113]

So did anyone else besides the OP make a change that made "it" happen?


I tried a bunch of stuff, but it was the amp that did it for my system. I spent close to $1k building a Simple SE el34/kt88 SET amp for my Omega XRS speakers. I built the amp with the Omega speakers and my 6922 tube preamp in mind.

Next is going to be AC power... leaning toward regenerating with a "true" UPS, but I still have a lot of research to do. I was thinking of a parallel C/L filter like the Felix, but the UPS is fairly affordable, about $300. Then I can replace the brass connectors in my system with copper, and upgrade internal signal wiring, and then......... yeah it never ends. 

[*Scotty*]

I have had quite a bit better than musical wall paper performance for a number of years. However in the last year I have switched from
replay via CD player to replay from harddrive and then flashdrive. This was a pretty good improvement over the CD player. The arrival of a custom amp improved the performance quite a bit more. The speakers that disappeared about 75% of the time went to at least 90% of the time.  Recordings that had previously hinted at a measure of three dimensionality were suddenly much more three dimensional with discrete images appearing between the listening position and the front of the loudspeakers and recordings whose spacial content had only extended partway into the front of the room now completely immerse the listener within an artificial space. The capability for three dimensional replay exists on a continuum from just a little past the wallpaper stage to full immersion in an artificially created acoustic space. Like everything else in this hobby performance standards in this area are relative. You can think you are doing pretty well in this area of performance until you are blown away by hearing something you had not heretofore imagined existed.
Upgrading is a good thing.
Scotty

[Russtafarian]

Out of Phase: I assume we're talking about the polarity of one channel being reversed.  I've listened to a number of people's systems and immediately told them the system was out of phase.  No center image, weak bass, wierd stuff flying outside the speakers.  They get defensive or look confused.  I ask them to humor me and allow me to flip the leads on one speaker.  When they hear it in phase, they have an "Ah Ha" moment.  One time after correcting the phase of a guy's system, he said "so now we need to flip the leads on the other speaker, right?"  I told him no and tried to explain why but he probably did it anyway after I left.

It: A change I recently made to make "it" happen was move to battery power.  It started with a Bottlehead Quickie preamp that I set up with SLA's instead of alkalines.  Then I went to an SLA on the Squeezebox, another on the Sound Smith phono stage, and finally one on the DAC chip of an Oppo player.  Wow! "IT" has taken over the system.  (And yes, it's in phase)

Russ