What am I hearing??

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turkey

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Re: What am I hearing??
« Reply #40 on: 27 Jan 2010, 02:54 pm »
I definitely have found that the soundstage depends upon the recording. But with a lot of recordings (of acoustic performances) I have been finding that I get a reliable 3D soundstage. (Close-miked multi-mono recordings like the typical studio recording do not have anything resembling a good soundstage.)

I get a 3D soundstage while using very modest electronics and wires. The speakers and the room are the important things.

JackD201

Re: What am I hearing??
« Reply #41 on: 27 Jan 2010, 06:00 pm »
Phase is definitely the key. 4 factors in my experience determine this in the reproduction chain.

1. A high enough level of micro dynamic and tonal resolution
2. Signal symmetry
3. Dispersion Symmetry which depends greatly on off axis response and room coupling
4. Sufficient linearity at the frequency extremes

In the OPs case I would guess his improvements in No.1 on the list completed the package.

Yet something does puzzle me. Sound shouldn't sound like it is coming from inside your head. That is a common symptom of out of phase sound. While his system may be wired correctly, I came across a thread where Artemis is looking for soundstaging champ recordings.

There is supposedly a listing on the web with a compiled list of recordings according to phase. I lost the link so if anyone can find it, it would be nice to post that list somewhere here in AC.


*Scotty*

Re: What am I hearing??
« Reply #42 on: 27 Jan 2010, 06:42 pm »
It looks like we need to nail one foot of this thing to the floor definition wise. If I understand the OP correctly he is hearing apparent sources emanate from beside him,behind him and above him and between his listening position and the front of the loudspeakers. He says he can almost reach out and touch the source of sound.
This is a recreation of the artificial sound-space created in the studio through phase manipulation of the signals. This is not necessarily the type of imaging that one would expect from a recording which was not subject to studio manipulation of phase relationships. I would not call this a sound-stage as conventionally defined and experienced by most audiophiles. This capability however,in a source,preamp or power amp as well as loudspeakers, is my yardstick for the measurement of High Fidelity performance of audio gear. If I substitute loudspeakers into a system which do not disappear in place of speakers that do, I know that the speakers under test aren't going to cut it no matter well they measure. The same test is applied to any piece of gear that might find its way into my system. If the sound-stage collapses towards the front wall like musical wallpaper then the piece of gear has failed the test.
Scotty

turkey

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Re: What am I hearing??
« Reply #43 on: 27 Jan 2010, 07:11 pm »
Phase is definitely the key. 4 factors in my experience determine this in the reproduction chain.

1. A high enough level of micro dynamic and tonal resolution
2. Signal symmetry
3. Dispersion Symmetry which depends greatly on off axis response and room coupling
4. Sufficient linearity at the frequency extremes

I'm not sure what #1 is exactly. Can you define it in more objective terms?

#2 would seem to only apply to test signals, not to most music.

In #3, are you talking about directivity and polar response? If so, I would agree that these are extremely important.

It's been shown that the ear is not that sensitive to distortion at very low frequencies, and there's nothing going on at the listening position above about 10 KHz in most cases. I'd say linearity in the midrange is far more important.

Quote
There is supposedly a listing on the web with a compiled list of recordings according to phase. I lost the link so if anyone can find it, it would be nice to post that list somewhere here in AC.

That's probably a list that tries to sort recordings according to "absolute phase." For various reasons that really isn't that useful.


JackD201

Re: What am I hearing??
« Reply #44 on: 28 Jan 2010, 01:18 am »
Parts of number 1 can be measured like channel separation, rise times, impulse response, damping factors and so on but it is largely subjective in the sense that any instrument is only as resolving as the ears the listener is born with. A simple example is that some children are born with a form of deafness that affect how they hear consonant sounds. Consonant sounds are high frequency in nature and vowel sounds low. The unscreened children because they show no signs of deafness are then mistaken for being less than average in intelligence because the deafness is observed as lack in comprehension because the oft mistake one consonant sound for another making sentences a messed up jumble. They get by through by empathy being sensitive to the speakers tone. This is an extreme example but to differentiate the horn section from a string section playing the same sustained note would require that the system be able to sufficiently portray the differences in timbre of the two all of which can be considered micro both because these happen in the smallest voltage changes and as a result the smallest excursions AND the listener should be able to in the most basic sense, hear it. As I age I'm becoming like those children as my HF perception slowly wanes. At some point I'll eventually begin hearing things en masse without the ability to deconstruct and reconstruct. It doesn't mean however that I can not enjoy music. All it means is that someday soundstaging will not be as important as it is now and I too will get by with tone.

Signal symmetry is a must whether trying to make a ball out of pink noise, stacking up instruments in a mono recording or listening to a full phantom stereo stage. It's what feeds No.3. For example if a preamp or source for any reason is churning out a signal weaker in one channel the vocalist's position will move off center towards the the stronger channel. Clearly it is not just needed for test tones.

The 85% of the music comes from the midrange camp is right in that the enjoyment of music comes from an even higher percentage of that however we are talking about the attempt to simulate spatial cues. While the higher frequencies play a great part in localization the bass carries the recorded long reverberation times which determines the hall size. This makes not just extension capabilities important but their linearity as well. The difference in presentation then can be between creating the illusion of the performers being in the room with you or the illusion of you being at the venue. I listen mostly to classical music so having a hundred folks with me in the room isn't my cup of tea.

I'm not being clever or anything these are all part of AES and EBU accepted principles applied to the recording, manufacturing, broadcasting and reproduction processes the last of which includes acoustics. All manufacturers try to achieve these goals the room coupling part however is all up to us.

Artemis

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Re: What am I hearing??
« Reply #45 on: 28 Jan 2010, 04:21 am »
Did test for "out of phase' and I'm sure it's not out of phase..

turkey

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Re: What am I hearing??
« Reply #46 on: 28 Jan 2010, 04:24 pm »
This is an extreme example but to differentiate the horn section from a string section playing the same sustained note would require that the system be able to sufficiently portray the differences in timbre of the two all of which can be considered micro both because these happen in the smallest voltage changes and as a result the smallest excursions AND the listener should be able to in the most basic sense, hear it.

Ok, I see what you're saying. I feel that the speakers, room, and recording are mostly what determine whether or not you can hear these types of things.

Quote
Signal symmetry is a must whether trying to make a ball out of pink noise, stacking up instruments in a mono recording or listening to a full phantom stereo stage. It's what feeds No.3. For example if a preamp or source for any reason is churning out a signal weaker in one channel the vocalist's position will move off center towards the the stronger channel. Clearly it is not just needed for test tones.

So you're talking about channel-to-channel balance? Unless they're broken or really poorly-designed, modern electronics shouldn't have this problem. Even so, adjusting the balance control should fix it.


JackD201

Re: What am I hearing??
« Reply #47 on: 29 Jan 2010, 01:54 am »
So you're talking about channel-to-channel balance? Unless they're broken or really poorly-designed, modern electronics shouldn't have this problem. Even so, adjusting the balance control should fix it.

Yup, that's what I mean turkey. Even mass market products shouldn't have this problem. It's a basic tenet of stereo.

I rather miss balance controls because finding symmetrical rooms and by that I mean not just in shape but in construction as well is next to impossible unless it is purpose built. My preamp uses a separate volume knob for each channel so I can manipulate balance if I need to but it comes with  the downside of having no remote. It's okay though. I need the exercise  :lol:

@Artemis

Don't sweat the phase issue. If you're wired up properly it is almost sure it is recording dependent as turkey says.