Can I ever get the bass I need from a bottle?

Hantra · « **on:** 23 Jan 2003, 02:59 am »

Guys:

I am sort of addicted to this tube sound I am getting. I have owned a hybrid amp before, and that convinced me to step all tubes. Glad I did too, but sometimes, I feel like I want the Krell bass. My speakers sometimes want more watts. Am I ever going to be able to get these, AND the rest of what tubes have to give me?

I know that a lot of guys are Krell haters, but I keep looking at the 300iL used, and say to myself that if I sold my Audio Note, I'd almost be there! But I am scared to make that move. I have found the best spot I have ever been in with these tubes, and there is the unknown with going to another amp, but I may have to.

What do you guys think?

Also, give me a good recommendation on a 12AU7 with decent bass. I changed to some RAM's, and my bass just went completely away!

L8r,

B

Tyson · « **Reply #1 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 03:47 am »

What are your main speakers? Maybe you could bi-amp? Or, you could get stereo subs and cross them over at 150 or 200hz, to give you that slammin bass coupled w/the sweet tube mids. . .

audioengr · « **Reply #2 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 03:53 am »

There are two possibilities to get the bass that you want:

1) different speakers or add a subwoofer
2) different tube amp

If you have the bux, the deHavilland 845 is an awesome amp that will not let you down in the bass dept.
http://www.dehavillandhifi.com

Hantra · « **Reply #3 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 03:56 am »

Tyson:

My speakers are not bi-wireable. The sub idea is a good one, and one that I hadn't considered before! The only issue I may have with that is having to go through a crossover. I have a Paradigm X-30 that doesn't get any use, so that may be the ticket.

That deHaviland is a beautiful amp, but a little out of my realm of purchasing power at the moment! But if I had it, I wouldn't hesitate to try it b/c of your last recommendation to me. I am still in awe at how great this Sony is as a transport!

L8r,

B

Tyson · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 04:10 am »

Get 2 subs, not just one. One sub forces you to cross over at 80hz or lower due to dirctionality issues, and that is too low to give you that really nice, slammin upper bass sound. 2 subs placed physically close to your main speakers will let you cross over much higher and give you that nice snap and percussive bass.

For this type of app, the VMPS Original subs are the best I've heard in a reasonable size.

Hantra · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 04:21 am »

Quote

VMPS Original subs are the best I've heard in a reasonable size

Better than the Vandersteens?

Thx!

B

mgalusha · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 04:28 am »

Good bass with tubes is difficult to (IMO) to come by. Many tube amps have a high output impedance with translates into low damping factor and generally sloppy bass. This seems to be especially true with SET's and other low powered amps. At least when driving speakers with fairly large woofers that need electical damping in addition to mechanical damping.

As suggested using subs can help a lot, especially if you high pass the signal going to the main amps. Relieving the amps of having to produce a lot of current generally increases the apparent power.

I have a pair of 100wpc DIY tube amps which provide quite good bass (fairly low output impedance) but even high passed at 80hz with dual subs the bass is not as tight and powerfull as when using a good SS amp. IME speakers with smaller drivers will produce tighter bass using tubes simply because of the reduced mass of the drivers.

This is one of those areas where a lot of folks have to choose between tight, slamming SS bass or creamy tube mids. Of course there are SS amps that are noted for "tubelike" sound. I would suggest trying a tube pre with a good SS amp but since you had a hybrid before you have been down that path to some degree.

Hmm.. seems I have rambled on and not said much of anything, so I'll stop now.

Mike

mgalusha · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 04:34 am »

Quote from: Hantra

Quote
VMPS Original subs are the best I've heard in a reasonable size

Better than the Vandersteens?

Depends on your taste. I have a pair of 2WQ's and love em'. I have also heard a pair of VMPS original subs and they sound very good. The Vandie's are physically smaller and won't give quite as much slam. They are however, very easy to integrate and will pressurize the room if need be.

Mike

nathanm · « **Reply #8 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 04:37 am »

Good bass from a bottle? Sure thing, you just keep drinking and eventually your head will start to throb!

Tyson · « **Reply #9 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 04:42 am »

IMO, the VMPS Original subs (with soundcoat and megawoofer) were better than the Vandy subs (sorry mike, not a diss on your subs, which I thought were very good!) The VMPS subs just have speed, slam, punch, and power in spades. For music they are the best subs I've heard. BUT, you need a seperate amp and crossover for them. The Original subs put out better bass than the RM-40's, which is impressive. . .

Psychicanimal · « **Reply #10 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 05:20 am »

I had been researching which sub option was best for my Modwright Swans and someone I trust talked me out of the VMPS if used at a higher X-over frequency, due to lack of speed (passive radiator design). I'm going for 12" acoustic suspension stereo subs w/ Hi-Vi drivers & Bybee filters in a custom designed enclosure. They will not have the extreme deep bass of the VMPS but will more than compensate for in transient speed and snap. This does not mean I might not add a single VMPS in the future, crossed @ 30Hz, as I purchased a Marchand X-9 Deluxe and it's easy to upgrade...

If one tries to blend tube amps w/a transistor bass amp then matching amp speed becomes *critical* if a seamless transition is wanted.

Simple, but not easy...

Tyson · « **Reply #11 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 05:39 am »

Haha, who told you the VMPS subs are slow? I'm not laughing at you, but at the ridiculousness of that statment. The VMPS subs have the 2nd tightest/fastest bass I've EVER heard, and that includes some pretty damn impressive subs that are out there. Only thing I've heard better is ThomasW's 12 Shiva's dancing (you can't get cleaner or more powerful bass than a very good infinite baffle sub like this). My guess is that the person that told you the VMPS subs are slow has never heard them, and was making a general statetment about PR subs having a somewhat more "bloated" sound, and higher group delay than a sealed sub. I'd normally agree with them 100%, as that is exactly how my own DIY sub w/ dual 18" PR's sounds. But not the VMPS subs, those things are tight as a drum.

Pics of ThomasW's IB sub:

mgalusha · « **Reply #12 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 01:49 pm »

Quote from: Tyson

IMO, the VMPS Original subs (with soundcoat and megawoofer) were better than the Vandy subs (sorry mike, not a diss on your subs, which I thought were very good!)

Actually you didn't hear my subs.

I had them turned off when we were playing with the preamps so the high pass filters wouldn't change things. The bass that day was just the 3a's driven by tube amps, definitely not the tight and clean.

Mike

Hantra · « **Reply #13 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 02:07 pm »

Well what do I have to use to power the VMPS subs? They seem like a good deal, but I tohught they had amps. hehe. . .

Thanks!

B

JoshK · « **Reply #14 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 03:05 pm »

Get a Crown K1 or K2, that seems to be the consensus here.

Wayne1 · « **Reply #15 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 03:32 pm »

B,

I use a QSC amp, with the new QUIET fan, for my VMPS Larger Sub.

Brian Cheney recommends, uses and sells the QSC amps for his subs.

Jason (Pez) uses an 80 WPC Class A tube amp for his 626Rs and a QSC (with QUIET fan) for his pair of VMPS Original subs.

He uses a pro audio ART active crossover that I slightly modded, new power supply caps and upgraded op-amps.

The match between the ribbons and the subs is seamless.

As has been mentioned many time in the VMPS forum, you can change the tuning of the sub by changing the amount of dampening material used on the passive radiator. You can get the subs to sound like a car stereo boom box, if that is what you wish, but they also can be tuned to sound VERY tight and musical.

The Original Sub was first designed to match up with Quad ESL-63s. They did that EXTREMELY well. They should match up with your speakers equally well.

Finally, don't forget that I am a VMPS dealer

nathanm · « **Reply #16 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 04:16 pm »

How much QUIETER is that QUIET fan compared to the regular one? I'd love to bring my QSC out of the closet! (literally)

Wayne1 · « **Reply #17 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 04:23 pm »

nathan,

It is virtually soundless

I believe it is rated at 20-24 db. That is below ambient room noise. When I first installed it, I had to look at the fan blades to make sure they were turning

I suggest you get in touch with John Gordon at QSC to see about getting the replacement fan.

JohnR · « **Reply #18 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 07:34 pm »

John wouldn't send me a fan, but did give me a list of part numbers...

FAN / Model

Delta AUB0824L
Delta AFB0824L
Panaflo (Panasonic) FBA08A24L
Papst TYP8414L
SanyoDenki 109RO824H402

These are 24V fans so PC fans won't do. From memory they are 80 x 25 mm sized but you should check if sourcing alternatives.

Hantra · « **Reply #19 on:** 23 Jan 2003, 09:16 pm »

Which QSC models have RCA jacks? ? ?