[OlesonMD]

".......with regard's to tubes, in my personal stereo system you will not find any tube components. It is all solid state. And understand, I make some very good tube equipment."
This is from a telephone conversation I had with a very well known high end audio manufacturer a few years ago. As a courtesy, he shall remain anonymous.

"A few music listeners still have the illusion that...tubed units are in some mysterious way better than present solid state models. The overall superior performance of solid state design has been scientifically proven...Anyone investing in a contemporary vacuum tube product will experience less than the best available performance."
This is taken from a press release by McIntosh, prior to the reissue of their tube products. (source TAS)

There is one place where tubes do make a lot of sense.....guitar amps. Musicians overdrive the tubes to get that even order harmonic distortion that everyone (Clapton, etc.) seems to enjoy so much.

As a tube salesman said to me recently, "Of course anyone who spends around $100 per tube is going to tell you they sound fantastic!"

Do not misunderstand. It is not my claim that tubes are bad (or good), I'm just curious how many people could pass a double blind listening audition where tubes would be directly compared with SS where all other components are identical?

[Scottdazzle]

Oleson,

I bet most of the AC'ers who have owned both tube and ss equipment could pass this test with ease.

Scott

[woodsyi]

Do not misunderstand. It is not my claim that tubes are bad (or good), I'm just curious how many people could pass a double blind listening audition where tubes would be directly compared with SS where all other components are identical?

So, do one.  If you are invoking DBT, nothing short of an actual test with conclusive result will convince you anyway.   Of course, you have to select comparable and compatible amps for the system which may not be easy to line up.  Where are you located?

[DTB300]

Do not misunderstand. It is not my claim that tubes are bad (or good), I'm just curious how many people could pass a double blind listening audition where tubes would be directly compared with SS where all other components are identical?

My opinion...who cares???  There is no "best"....If you like the equipment you run, who cares if you can tell the difference or not? 

People have to learn to like and enjoy what they own, otherwise buy something else and quite asking others what they like.

There are plenty of tube, solid state, vinyl, digital, computer based, etc. people here on the site and I respect all of them for their personal preferences as to what they like/prefer best.  But that does not mean I will or should like it.

[konut]

Do not misunderstand. It is not my claim that tubes are bad (or good), I'm just curious how many people could pass a double blind listening audition where tubes would be directly compared with SS where all other components are identical?

That would be highly dependent upon the component in question. For instance, a preamp from Conrad- Johnson or Audio Research would be difficult to discern from SS. Otherwise, whats the point? Some like the presentation with tubes. That they don't like to admit that its the added distortion is the reason is more the subject of psychological discussion similar to the placebo effect.   

[BobRex]

For every quote you can drag up where designers claim to prefer SS, you can find similar quotes from designers that prefer tubes (David Manley, Tim DP, even Paul McGowan), so what's your point?

Oh, and when Sam Tellig pressed a McIntosh engineer, said engineer did eventually break down and agree that tubes and SS can sound different.  (as documented in Stereophile)

[Pez]

It's not about which one is more "scientifically" superior, it's about which sounds more real. Which one sounds better. F@#$ any lab coat that will tell you otherwise.

[bunky]

It's not about which one is more "scientifically" superior, it's about which sounds more real. Which one sounds better. F@#$ any lab coat that will tell you otherwise.

Tubes are far more linear than a transistor and seem to draw me into the music. 

[OlesonMD]

It was my desire to simply get feedback on the tube/SS topic as I have committed to a lot of research over the past couple weeks , and it appears that there are as many opinions as there are readers. It's my contention that any well engineered, well executed design, whether tube or SS, should sound good. As was brilliantly pointed out above, there may be a placebo effect in some instances.  I enjoy all of it.....tube and/or SS.

[Niteshade]

I can't complain about anything that's been said. 

Getting past the sound of tubes, I have to interject a point that totally whoops a solid state amp's arse:

A tube amp can be designed to operate a long, long time! As long as the capacitors are kept in good condition and good tubes are installed, a tube amp can last decades and be repaired with non-proprietary components much of the time.  This mass produced garbage is not considered a good investment by me. Those who spend more time with their designs and not interested in spitting them out like chicklets are excluded from the entire solid state throw-away society rant. Yeah, there are dozens of tube amps mass produced and they are grouped together with the cheap soild state amps.

Build quality and design are what makes it happen. There are tube amps that sound like cheap SS amps and if it were me, I would indeed go with the SS amp in that case and save a few bucks!

You have to go with the technology that best suites your needs: Many people run hybrid systems. Many find that their 4 ohm 84db speakers are better off with LARGE SS amps.

Please note: Power transistors are not cheap. They can and do wear out, but not as frequently as tubes.

There are clearly virtues to both technologies and one cannot always be a substitute for the other.

[DaveC113]

It depends on the speakers. On my inefficient Mirage bipolar speakers a big ss amp has an advantage. On my efficient single drivers the ss amp fares poorly vs. my EL34 SET. 

[Wind Chaser]

I think the point is that tubes are not the end all be all.  I've heard tube gear that I wouldn't own, even if it was free, and I've also heard some tube gear that was outstanding.   There are many naive people who think tubes are universally better than SS.  Not so.  Not even close. 

[Scottdazzle]

It was my desire to simply get feedback on the tube/SS topic as I have committed to a lot of research over the past couple weeks , and it appears that there are as many opinions as there are readers. It's my contention that any well engineered, well executed design, whether tube or SS, should sound good. As was brilliantly pointed out above, there may be a placebo effect in some instances.  I enjoy all of it.....tube and/or SS.

My interpretation of Oleson's original post was that we can't hear the difference between tubes and ss -- not which is "better".  In most cases, most of us could identify which is tube or ss.  Now, as to which is "better"..... ymmv.   

[OzarkTom]

Tube amps are better as long as they don't have output transformers in the circuit. Futtermans sure rings a bell, and the David Berning mono amps but not many. Some of the latest SS amps are better. You want typical tube sound with SS? Try the McIntosh solid state amps with output transformers. Transformers makes the sound muffled, it helps tame down a lot of brightness and hardness in many systems.

State of the art electrostats? Acoustat X's with direct drive tube amps with the latest mods. No speakers in the world has the detail or quickness that this system has with those DD transformerless tube amps. They even blow stacked Quads with Futterman's away. Transformers are in the Quads.

[Quiet Earth]

A tube amp without a transformer is like a bow without a cello. 

[JerryM]

A tube amp without a transformer is like a bow without a cello. 

Maybe the bow is playing a nice OTL Stradivarius?

Have fun,
Jerry

[BobM]

I find that for me to really like the sound there needs to be a tube SOMEWHERE in the chain. That doesn't mean it has to be all tubed, but generally I find that all SS usually doesn't float my boat.

That being said there are certainly exceptioins that I've heard to the above.

[OzarkTom]

Maybe the bow is playing a nice OTL Stradivarius?

Have fun,
Jerry

A much accurate comparison is driving a race car on a hazy day Vs. a clear day. The OTL's gets rid of all the haze plus adds dynamics. It is like running nitrous oxide in your system.

David Berning has spent over 30 years designing all sorts of tube amps, you will never see him build another amp with transformers.

[Niteshade]

I can't say that transformers cause hazing. Hazing is usually an effect of the following:

1. Excessive feedback
2. Tubes running excessively hot (biasing issues or other factors)
3. Improper transformer/tube match or speaker/transformer match
4. Phase splitter imbalance
5. H.V. sag

An output transformer itself shouldn't cause any hazing simply because it's a transformer. There are so many other things that can cause issues.

[Quiet Earth]

6. Using poorly made or inappropriate transformers.

I think abandoning the cost and difficulty of making excellent transformers is a fair enough reason to explore OTL amps. I was just razzing you Tom  .