[zybar]

Tubes or SS?  How can you all hear the difference through those crappy passive parts in your speakers' crossovers   Go active and you'll hear what a good tube amp can REALLY do

For a while I was using active speakers (Emerald Physics CS2's) with two pairs of OTL amps (Atma-Sphere M-60's and MA-1's) - very nice indeed!   

George

[zybar]

if you want to learn more about OTL and circlotron circuits, you may want to visit the Atma-sphere website where there are a number of white papers on the subject.

Disclaimer: I own all Atma-sphere gear, so I am biased (like my amps).

http://atma-sphere.com/papers/otl.html

You aren't biased...you just have good taste!   

George

[OzarkTom]

http://www.transcendentsound.com/speakers_for_otl_amplifiers.htm

Here is what speakers the Transcendent OTL amps will work with, catogarized by the model of amp.

[guest1632]

I can't complain about anything that's been said.  .
...
There are clearly virtues to both technologies and one cannot always be a substitute for the other.

I think you summed this up nicely. "There are clearly virtues to both technologies and one cannot always be a substitute for the other."

I will say this however, and before I start a flamewar, this is a broad! statement. It seems to me that if you are dealing with good highend equipment, your goal should be to not have a "sound" at all. So for ex. the Nelson Pass stuff, with his FET preamps, sound like tubes. and what's the one company on audiogon that sells the tube preamp for just under 2100 bucsk that you can audition, it sounds like or close to transistors, in that it might be classed as "neutral sounding." But the point I am making here is that no matter which way you choose, there will be diminishing returns between the two mediums, whichever state you choose, tubes or Solid State. They will for lack of a better word, "sound" similar to each other.

It seems to me my opinion please, there should be two goals when choosing what medium you choose to listen to music:
1. I would hope it would be sounding as real as possible.
2. And that in order to do so, the device tube or transistor should not have a sound of its own. Take it from there.

  In this modern age with tubes, gone are the traditional lack of bass, mushy bass, warm/bloomy midrange sound and no highs. on the transistor side, lots of bass, squished mids, and screaming hurt my ears highs.  For both good! tube and solid state gear, they should be sounding similar. . Unless you spend some bucks on the transistor side, you are gonna miss those magic mids. Tubes on the other hand on the lower end of things will have that bloom that a lot of people like. Anyway, I'll go away before this no longer makes any sense. lol. I was just attempting to try to point out some very generalities. Every component will sound different. Only you can choose what is the best for you. I'm done.

Ray Bronk

[borism]

http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index.html
There is a very good article published in the January 2000 issue of Stereophile by Markus Sauer: "God is in the nuances". He describes a double blind study conducted in Germany looking at analog vs. digital and SS vs. tube electronics. I think it would be very informative for people reading this thread.   

[Tyson]

http://www.stereophile.com/features/203/index.html
There is a very good article published in the January 2000 issue of Stereophile by Markus Sauer: "God is in the nuances". He describes a double blind study conducted in Germany looking at analog vs. digital and SS vs. tube electronics. I think it would be very informative for people reading this thread.   

That is an excellent article.  I think it explains (to me), why I keep gravitating back toward tubes.  Right now I use a pair of Dynakit ST70's on my mids/highs and an SS amp on the bass in my actively triamped speaker system.  Active speakers tend to magnify the strengths of tubes and really minimize their weaknesses.  I do use a digital source, a DEQX HDP-3, but since it allows my speakers to produce perfect phase, corrects group delay, and time aligns all the drivers, and allows for very steep crossover slopes (I use 96db/octave), it allows for a much more relaxed, easy, coherent, and musical experience. 

[zygadr]

".......with regard's to tubes, in my personal stereo system you will not find any tube components. It is all solid state. And understand, I make some very good tube equipment."
This is from a telephone conversation I had with a very well known high end audio manufacturer a few years ago. As a courtesy, he shall remain anonymous.

"A few music listeners still have the illusion that...tubed units are in some mysterious way better than present solid state models. The overall superior performance of solid state design has been scientifically proven...Anyone investing in a contemporary vacuum tube product will experience less than the best available performance."
This is taken from a press release by McIntosh, prior to the reissue of their tube products. (source TAS)

There is one place where tubes do make a lot of sense.....guitar amps. Musicians overdrive the tubes to get that even order harmonic distortion that everyone (Clapton, etc.) seems to enjoy so much.

As a tube salesman said to me recently, "Of course anyone who spends around $100 per tube is going to tell you they sound fantastic!"

Do not misunderstand. It is not my claim that tubes are bad (or good), I'm just curious how many people could pass a double blind listening audition where tubes would be directly compared with SS where all other components are identical?

May I chime in on this gents?.............I'm not wanting to start a debate, just to bring forward some recent observations:

I recently built a CLASS A, SINGLE ENDED, SINGLE MOSFET(internally paralelled device) amplifier with a small jfet as the pre stage, all built together in the form of an integrated amplifier.

This amplifier outputs approximately 12 watts/channel(perhaps a tad more?) and uses  good quality but relatively inexpensive electrolytic caps (oh...........the  audio blasphemy!............oh..the humanity!!! ) on the output from the T03 cased mosfets to the speaker terminals.
There are no input or output/coupling transformers anywhere in the circuit.

Of course the circuit is incredibly simple with minimal component count..........my goal all the way along.

There are no ''audiophile grade'' parts in this breadboarded version at present and the supply voltage is higher than the original circuit and the load resistors on heatsinks are massive(as is the power transformer, supply caps and 4 huge GE oil bypass caps and output device heatsinks).It's easily, physically as big as, if not A LOT bigger than most valve amplifiers.

I have built many variations of 300B's, 845's , 211's S.E. amplifiers in the past (all using best quality output transformers and the obligatory ''audiophile approved components'') and use 106 db two way horns.

Anyhow, my comment on S.S. and valves used in very similar circuit topology? :

I have never heard as much micro detail, top end sweetness, midrange magic and tuneful(as opposed to bloated) bass out of all the other amplifiers I have built.........ever .......this thing totally blows the ''valves are better'' myth out of the water...........I'm convinced of that.
It's more transparent, uncolored and very fast. No...........I'm using a standard el cheapo bridge rectifier .

Friends have bought their personal builds(valve) and some commercial offerings over as part of a shoot out and have gone home devastated ..........sorry guys

Why?...................beats me.............I have no explanation.

The circuit is not revolutionary, the parts quality is basic and it's cap coupled to the output(such horror!).

I personally will not use valves again..........anywhere or on anything................period.

After all these years, I have been slapped in the face with reality ..............I guess.

[Scott F.]

Hey zygadr,

Care to share? Is this a design of yours or a kit or maybe something one of the DIY websites where the schematics are posted?

Reason I ask, I was just talking to Chris Hof (of BPT) about trying. My thought was to use a jfet gain and one of the new high powered jfets as an output rather than a mosfet or bipolar. Like you, I'm a hardcore SET guy but I'm sort of intrigued with breadboarding an SET(ransistor) amp.

[zygadr]

 Sure!!!........The amp design is by Mark Houston from diyaudioprojects.com ......2sk1058 single mosfet amplifier. I used an EXICON 20N20 dual mosfet in a single T03 case.Here is the updated circuit changes





JFETBOZ preamp is from diyaudio.com ..........search ''JFETBOZ''

The amp load resistor was changed to 33ohm/200watt for 70v supply.........leave volume pot out.
JFETBOZ load resistor changed to 10k

Here's another that could be turbo charged:

[Steve]

My experience has been that excellent tube systems are so good at inner detail that they are capable of reproducing the reflections off the recording studio walls. 

Cheers.

[zygadr]

After my last post on the classA single ended mosfet amplifier, I have found myself listening more and more to the music than the system.

A vintage re-issue of Janos Starker's Bach solo Cello Suites on Mercury Living Presence had me so engaged and involved in his performance that I had my eyes closed and mimicking his fingers and bow strokes, (I have played the cello in the past)moving my head from side to side in small violent jerks as he would as a professional performer on stage.

So, my point is that it seems that, IMHO, a simple, small parts count circuit, single ended, Class A on efficient speakers, valve OR solid state is probably the secret to experiencing real, live music simulation in your home