Yes, it's all your fault(s)

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trebejo

Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« on: 9 Jan 2010, 11:14 pm »
Jeez, I just had to go and get myself soiled in yet another "are cables snake-oil" threads in audiogon,

http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?fcabl&1262751471&openfrom&1&4#1

I could have just shut up and let people prattle on and on about... jeez, quantum mechanics, if you can believe it...

Nonetheless, if anyone here can provide for me the Schrödinger equation for an RCA interconnect and for a power cord, it would advance the cause of audiophilia, I'm sure.

PS: Thanks, but I don't need the equation for a power chord. I can get that from Professor Van Halen.

Wayner

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #1 on: 9 Jan 2010, 11:38 pm »
I like Van Halen's first LP. Does that count? I didn't know they were professors, tho.

Wayner  8)

charmerci

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #2 on: 11 Jan 2010, 11:26 am »

Nonetheless, if anyone here can provide for me the Schrödinger equation for an RCA interconnect and for a power cord, it would advance the cause of audiophilia, I'm sure.


When talking about interconnects and power chords, forget about the Schrödinger equation - talk about the Schrödinger's Cat dilemma!

turkey

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Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #3 on: 11 Jan 2010, 05:23 pm »
When talking about interconnects and power chords, forget about the Schrödinger equation - talk about the Schrödinger's Cat dilemma!

Actually, in this case it's Schrödinger's wallet. After you buy quantum power cords, your wallet will be in an indeterminate state until you open it, at which point it will prove to be empty.

trebejo

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #4 on: 11 Jan 2010, 10:51 pm »
(ed. note: This lengthy reply is here, but it really belongs in the audiogon thread. Unfortunately the moderators censor my replies so much that I have no hope of getting it in there.)

It's pretty amazing that these people go on and on about how NO ONE knows what is going on at the quantum level... then they proceed to demonstrate that they, at the very least, do not have any knowledge to share.   :scratch:

btw said Schrödinger equation surely exists. You can bet your last dollar that someone at Lawrence Berkeley labs already had written it down, and probably before then as well--any particle accelerator has enough demand for ultimate accuracy in such things. If that equation made for better stereos, do you imagine that the wave of audiophile EEs and physicists that emerged beginning in the 1960s (hi Dr. Bose!) would have passed up the opportunity?  :icon_surprised:

However, the conclusion can be seen from a million light years away: whatever information you will obtain from optimizing such an equation will not be a first-order effect, and it will be surprising if it is even a fourth-order effect, given the conditions in ordinary households. You might as well worry about the effects of the gravitational interaction between the electron and the proton (factual note for non-science people: the gravitational force between an electron and a proton is something like 0.000lotsofzeros005 % as intense as the electrical force between them).

Of course, if you were to place a cryogenic bottle in the room big enough to hold your hifi, that would change. Maybe some of the cable witch doctors can sell us one of those things.  :duh:

So we are left with first-, second- and third-order effects that go unaddressed, whilst pursuing higher-order improvements from these cables, along with a measuring methodology that resembles the method used in those television shows that are so popular nowadays, where contestants prance in front of the camera and celebrities decide which one gets to return to prance another day.

Somehow, we are supposed to trust--and steeply fund, sight unseen--a "Cryocabling With The Stars" methodology instead of the methodology that leads to power plants, 24/7 worldwide electrical grids, Nobel prizes, and Frank's garage research laboratory.

Yes, I know, my analogy is unfair; let me extend my apologies to those TV shows.  :thumb:

What ticked me off this time was not only that thread, but an echo from another thread... here Frank was announcing another one of his wonderful products, and the inevitable question came up as to whether he was going to provide a detachable power cord.  :evil:

Frank's reply to that request almost made me cry--yes, I know, but stay with me. Let me recontextualize his reply as follows:

"Q: Frank, you will make a lot more money if you just go along with this hoax. You will sell more stuff, the magazines will love you, you will be wined and dined and your bank account will be happy. If do not go along, however, you will continue to toil along in virtual anonimity for 99%+ of the hifi-shopping public.

A: Screw that. People have enough to worry about everyday, I do not want to add to their confusion and make them lose money. I do not accept the offer to take money and fame based on misinformation and confusion."


(Note: those are MY WORDS, not the circle sponsor's.)

Time to make a short, shameful confession: I was two mouseclicks away from ordering a $995 AC power gadget at 50% off (I would give you the brand name, but I don't want to start a brand war between it and Frank; I would give you a functional description of what it does, but the manufacturer more or less refuses to give me one; send me a personal message if you really want to know). I stopped because the gadget required me to purchase a power cord for it, and while I was making up my mind about spending another $100 or so... a fellow audiophile whom I contacted on audiogon casually mentioned that I was about to spend quite a bit of money (he sold me some fancy wall plugs for $10 a piece, which I felt was not too expensive for audio jewelry)... and that got me thinking.

Then I stumbled into this audiocircle and you guys set me straight. The question with an obvious answer became: do I trust the witch doctors making 1000% profit margins with their magic cables, or do I trust the many years of schooling and the EEs and physicists that say otherwise?

A note of caution: this point of view is heavily censored on that audiogon thread (I'm lucky if I get half my posts past the moderator). So unfortunately, we are going to continue to harvest the ignorance of new audiophiles who, bless them, do not have enough experience and are prone to trust the "golden eared".

Oh well. Some of us get lucky. I have $20 RCA interconnects (thank you, Redco Audio), $50 speaker wires (I splurged, but Mr. Poon makes nice stuff), and of course AVA's "lamp cords". My system sounds fantastic, and the people that designed it to sound so fantastic tell me that my cables are fine. Gee, whose word should I take for it? aa

DaveC113

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Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #5 on: 12 Jan 2010, 12:04 am »
Gee, whose word should I take for it? aa

I think you should decide for yourself  :wink:

oneinthepipe

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Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #6 on: 12 Jan 2010, 01:36 am »
I tried some different speaker wire, and the sound was different.  I used monoprice wire and then I used some Belden wire, both in the same gauge.  They were both inexpensive wire.  The music sounded brighter with the Belden wire.  There are lots of possible reasons for my belief that the music sounded brighter with the Belden wire, but I had not had any alcohol, ice cream, or other psychotropic substance.  The only constants were the musical tracks, the electronics, the speakers, the volume setting, and maybe some other things that I am overlooking.  There are a lot variables that I did not measure, such as the line voltage, my blood pressure, the barometric pressure, etc.  My listening skills are not very developed, but my wife heard a difference, too, and she never tells me anything that she thinks that I want to hear.  I think that she took some kind of vow.   :cry:   I fully endorse trying different speaker wire, provided that the wire doesn't cost more than wire that can be purchased from The Home Depot.

Regarding whether or not Eddie Van Halen is a professor, I wish to produce the following irrefutable evidence.  In 1995, quoting Eddie Van Halen, John Sakamoto wrote, "'I have what's called a vascular necrosis, which means the top of the ball of my hip joint is dead bone,' [P]rofessor Van Halen is saying ... recently from Boston. 'It's just from years of drinking and jumping on it and [being too drunk to feel] the damage I was doing.'" 

http://jam.canoe.ca/Music/Artists/V/Van_Halen/1995/08/15/751520.html


I suspect that I know where this thread is heading, BTW.

JerryM

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Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #7 on: 12 Jan 2010, 02:20 am »
I suspect that I know where this thread is heading, BTW.

As do I.  I mean really, Schrödinger's cat is dead. Which, in turn, deftly explains the wallet analogy.  :thumb:

Have fun,
Jerry

trebejo

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #8 on: 12 Jan 2010, 02:42 am »
My wife ... never tells me anything that she thinks that I want to hear.  I think that she took some kind of vow.   :cry:

I am single, but I can tell you that as my parents approach their 50th wedding anniversary, my father claims that the above observation has been a constant during their blissful hemicentury.

So on this most important topic, I have no answers for you, and I doubt herr Schrödinger would either. Maybe that's where those psychotropic thingies that you didn't take for the test can come in handy.  :thumb:

I had a reply for your other well stated points but I shelved it, I think I'd rather hear what y'all think instead. Thanks for the info!

Tom Alverson

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #9 on: 12 Jan 2010, 03:31 am »
I paid about $100 for something that made my system sound really good:

http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Complete-Works-170-Box/dp/B000BLI3K2/ref=pd_bxgy_m_text_b

(the price has gone up a little) 

I've never paid for a power cord - I get plenty of them free when I buy computers and monitors.

modular747

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Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #10 on: 12 Jan 2010, 03:51 am »
What?  You blew that money on recordings, and possibly even worse, wasted all that time listening to music rather than devoting it to tweeking cables and power cords.  What were you thinking?

Listens2tubes

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #11 on: 12 Jan 2010, 02:44 pm »
Now that Tom has the CD's he'll need this http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0603/audiodesk.htm
 :eyebrows:

Tom Alverson

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #12 on: 12 Jan 2010, 03:37 pm »
It took me a little while to figure out if that is a spoof or not (it's not)...

thegage

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Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #13 on: 12 Jan 2010, 05:08 pm »
Then I stumbled into this audiocircle and you guys set me straight. The question with an obvious answer became: do I trust the witch doctors making 1000% profit margins with their magic cables, or do I trust the many years of schooling and the EEs and physicists that say otherwise?

So unfortunately, we are going to continue to harvest the ignorance of new audiophiles who, bless them, do not have enough experience and are prone to trust the "golden eared".

My system sounds fantastic, and the people that designed it to sound so fantastic tell me that my cables are fine. Gee, whose word should I take for it? aa

I always listen and decide for myself, but I guess some people need others to tell them what to think.

John K.

charmerci

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #14 on: 12 Jan 2010, 05:31 pm »
I always listen and decide for myself, but I guess some people need others to tell them what to think.

John K.

Well, I know some guys who love those huge boomboxes cranked out to the max where I can hear 95% distortion. They listen and have decided that they love that sound....

Stylus

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #15 on: 12 Jan 2010, 09:04 pm »
I'll start by saying that I don't spend a lot of money on cables, and have done no A/Bing to try and figure out if they sound different, however....

What is the point of arguing this stuff?  You can try and save the world by proving there is no difference, but we are talking about adults, spending THEIR money.  Life is full of lessons, if they want to try expensive cables, so be it.

The other part I do not understand is trying to find a scientific explanation for enjoyment.  There are a lot people who buy these cables and it makes them happy, more power to them, happiness isn't always the easiest thing to find.  Is it a placebo effect?  Maybe, but who cares?  The enjoyment could be real nonetheless.

trebejo

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #16 on: 12 Jan 2010, 09:31 pm »
I'll start by saying that I don't spend a lot of money on cables, and have done no A/Bing to try and figure out if they sound different, however....

What is the point of arguing this stuff?  You can try and save the world by proving there is no difference, but we are talking about adults, spending THEIR money.  Life is full of lessons, if they want to try expensive cables, so be it.

The other part I do not understand is trying to find a scientific explanation for enjoyment.  There are a lot people who buy these cables and it makes them happy, more power to them, happiness isn't always the easiest thing to find.  Is it a placebo effect?  Maybe, but who cares?  The enjoyment could be real nonetheless.

You ask several questions there, but they have already been answered in this thread.

If you disagree with the answers, if you think they are inaccurate, then go ahead and say so. But repeating the same question that has already been answered is a bit circular.

modular747

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Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #17 on: 12 Jan 2010, 09:51 pm »
I'll start by saying that I don't spend a lot of money on cables, and have done no A/Bing to try and figure out if they sound different, however....

What is the point of arguing this stuff?  You can try and save the world by proving there is no difference, but we are talking about adults, spending THEIR money.  Life is full of lessons, if they want to try expensive cables, so be it.

If you have no problems with the fact that what you truly believe you hear has a lot to do with what your read and what you are told by others, so be it.  Psychoacoustics is a complex process, and expectation is a huge factor.

From what I see, it's the people who "hear" the cables who become very defensive,  dismissive and even irate when it's suggested that what they perceive  has more to do with psychology than acoustics.  If blind testing that they themselves participate in doesn't confirm their beliefs, they can't accept it and dismiss the results. 


Stylus

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #18 on: 12 Jan 2010, 11:05 pm »
You ask several questions there, but they have already been answered in this thread.

If you disagree with the answers, if you think they are inaccurate, then go ahead and say so. But repeating the same question that has already been answered is a bit circular.
I only asked one basic question, "who cares", and you are right, that question has been answered, obviously you do, very much so.

Quote
From what I see, it's the people who "hear" the cables who become very defensive,  dismissive and even irate when it's suggested that what they perceive  has more to do with psychology than acoustics.  If blind testing that they themselves participate in doesn't confirm their beliefs, they can't accept it and dismiss the results.
I don't know, these arguments don't happen one sided.  There are obviously people very passionate on both sides of the argument.

trebejo

Re: Yes, it's all your fault(s)
« Reply #19 on: 12 Jan 2010, 11:09 pm »
Psychoacoustics is a complex process, and expectation is a huge factor.

Boy, is that ever true. And then, the manipulation of said expectations may well be the sole raison d'etre for several audio companies (who shall remain nameless since this is the forum of an audio company that is completely the opposite).

Sometimes one does get blindsided, though. I remember when I plugged in the Ultra 550, I expected to hear some improvements but my psychoacoustic expectation was that I should concentrate really hard and try to do so. The improvements, however, were obvious and immediate. However, if there had been no "objective" improvements at all, perhaps the expectations would  have encouraged me to hear them anyway...

Quote
From what I see, it's the people who "hear" the cables who become very defensive,  dismissive and even irate when it's suggested that what they perceive  has more to do with psychology than acoustics.  If blind testing that they themselves participate in doesn't confirm their beliefs, they can't accept it and dismiss the results.

This repugnant trait is further exacerbated in the case that I have described here by the audiogon censorship policy that filters out many replies from the opposite viewpoint. One side of the argument gets to spew insults and misinformation, the other side is silenced by either the repugnant atmosphere or, if he can take the heat and bothers to write a coherent reply... then he is censored by the audiogon moderator. The reader of such forum threads is thus encouraged to believe that there really is something to hear there, then he plunks down $Toomuch on a set of cables, and before you know it, he too becomes quite touchy about hearing that it was quite possibly no more than an expensive placebo.

Of course, audiogon is among other things, a business, and they must make some $$ from the resale of the magic cables. Same comment may apply to hifi review sites (although 6moons did recommend some inexpensive DIY cabling though!  :thumb: ).